OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

While re-reading (for only God knows what time) my book:

Len Deighton
Blood, tears and Folly

ISBN: 0785811141

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... d_oe_h&st=*


I found very interesting info about two times that West almost attacked Russia:

#1
When on 30 November 1939 Stalin attacked Finland French and British leaders (still smarting from the way in which Stalin had done deal with Hitler) impulsively offered aid to the Finns.

Without consulting the British French premier Daladier said he would send 50,000 troops and 100 bombers via northern Norway and Sweden.

Then Britain followed suite with offer of similar help.

Whilst this seemed altruistic this also meant that those troops would seize neutral Norway's iron ore port of Narvik and go to Finland via, also neutral, Sweden. Thus this was to serve several purposes (i.e. help Finns against Russia and remove Hitler's access to Norway/Sweden iron (and other) ores).

Fate was that Anglo-French preparations were lengthy and Finns had to ask Russians for armistice before this plan was set in motion.

Nonetheless the parts of the plan were retained and put in motion when, accidentally or not, Hitler decided to intervene in Norway himself in spring of 1940...


#2
At the meet of Anglo-French Supreme War Council in late 1939 it was decided that Stalin's oil shipments to Hitler was greatest threat to Allied war effort. Because of that decision was made to simply bomb neutral Russia's oil wells without the formality of declaring war.

France's Armee de l'Air assigned 5 squadrons of Martin Maryland bombers, flying from north-eastern Syria, to bomb Batum and Grozny. The RAF were to use 4 squadrons of Bristol Blenheim flying out of Mosul in Iraq.

To prepare for this bombing mission Lockheed 14 Super Electra (Lockheed Hudson was military version of this) was used for photo reconnaissance (flying from Habbaniyah in Iraq).

On 30 March 1940 Baku was successfully photographed but on 5 April 1940 Batum was heavily defended by heavy firing Russian AAA (that were actually firing on British aircraft) and photographs were taken of 3/4 of target area.

Fortunately for the world the Germany attacked France few days later and this crazy mission was abandoned...


At the end just one more "cookie"... Hitler's plunder in Russia in whole war duration added together was significantly _LESS_ valuable than what he got from Stalin in 1939-1941 almost for free according to Hitler-Stalin pact of economic aid..


Leo "Apollo11"

[eMonticello]

If Deighton is suggesting that the Allies were executing the plans for both operations, he is incorrect. In both cases, they never went beyond the French presenting the proposals to the British during the Supreme War Council (SWC) meetings and the British rejecting them.

According to Jackson in The Fall of France, the French plan was to send troops to Pelsamo, Finland, under the pretext of supporting the Finns; their real mission was to seize the Norwegian ports and cut off the German iron ore imports. France's 'silly scheme' was rejected by the British "on the grounds it would bring the Allies directly into conflict with the Soviet Union, but they did accept an alternative French plan for the expedition to Narvik, having first requested the approval of Norway and Sweden". Both Norway and Sweden rejected the plan since they wanted to preserve their neutrality. After the Soviet-Finnish Armistice, Daladier was replaced by Reynaud as PM. "After the first SWC meeting that Reynaud attended as Prime Minister on 28 March 1940, the British firmly rejected any idea of bombing the Caucasus, but accepted a plan to mine the waters off Narvik. In return, Reynaud accepted the mining of the Rhine [inside Germany]. Almost immediately the entire agreement was jeopardized when other members of Reynaud's government blocked the mining of the Rhine for fear that it might invite direct retaliation against France. The British responded by refusing to go ahead with the Narvik operation. ... The French, [Cadogan] said, 'talk about "vigorous prosecution of the war" which means we should do it provided that we remove the war as far as possible from France'. ... In the end, the British caved in and agreed to go ahead with the Norwegian operation regardless." Of course, the Germans invaded Norway before the British could implement the plan.

A lot of talk went on during the SWC meetings, but very little action. I highly recommend the Jackson book.

Jackson, Julian. The Fall of France. New York: Oxford University Press, 2003.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

If Deighton is suggesting that the Allies were executing the plans for both operations, he is incorrect. In both cases, they never went beyond the French presenting the proposals to the British during the Supreme War Council (SWC) meetings and the British rejecting them.

He is not suggesting that they were executed (except for British recce overflights of Russian oil fields when Russian AAA fired on photographic aircraft) - they were "only" planned (but even that should send chills down our spines - imagine WWII with Germany and Russia as full allies)...


Leo "Apollo11

[rtrapasso]

At the end just one more "cookie"... Hitler's plunder in Russia in whole war duration added together was significantly _LESS_ valuable than what he got from Stalin in 1939-1941 almost for free according to Hitler-Stalin pact of economic aid..

Oh course, this stuff was "almost free" because Hitler, having gone to war with Stalin, wasn't making his agreed payments on the stuff. IIRC, that was one of Hitler's considerations for attacking Russia - Germany could not easily make payments for all those goodies.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Oh course, this stuff was "almost free" because Hitler, having gone to war with Stalin, wasn't making his agreed payments on the stuff. IIRC, that was one of Hitler's considerations for attacking Russia - Germany could not easily make payments for all those goodies.

Hmmm... I don't think that Stalin (and Russian's were that stupid)... the shipments from Russia to Germany were taking place for almost 2 whole years (late summer 1939 - beggining of summer 1941) and therefore I think that germans did pay at least something (they had to give Russians plans and other non-material stuff as well)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Harald1050]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

At the end just one more "cookie"... Hitler's plunder in Russia in whole war duration added together was significantly _LESS_ valuable than what he got from Stalin in 1939-1941 almost for free according to Hitler-Stalin pact of economic aid..

Oh course, this stuff was "almost free" because Hitler, having gone to war with Stalin, wasn't making his agreed payments on the stuff. IIRC, that was one of Hitler's considerations for attacking Russia - Germany could not easily make payments for all those goodies.

Do you have any source for that opinion?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Harald1050

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

At the end just one more "cookie"... Hitler's plunder in Russia in whole war duration added together was significantly _LESS_ valuable than what he got from Stalin in 1939-1941 almost for free according to Hitler-Stalin pact of economic aid..

Oh course, this stuff was "almost free" because Hitler, having gone to war with Stalin, wasn't making his agreed payments on the stuff. IIRC, that was one of Hitler's considerations for attacking Russia - Germany could not easily make payments for all those goodies.

Do you have any source for that opinion?

EDIT - sorry for the delay - just now saw this.


This was from something i read a LONG time ago (i.e. probably 30 years or more). Iirc, it might have been one of Paul Carrell's book, which i think was called "Hitler Moves East".

Again, iirc - there was a repayment schedule, something along the lines of a multi-year loan, and while SOME payments had been made, it wasn't many, and the principal on the loan was building up. The setting in the book was the Germans allowing the last train full of raw materials from the Soviet Untion to get into Germany before they opened fire in their assault.

[testarossa]

I never read something like this before. It's like US went to war with Iraq because they didn't like the price of the oil.

To explain why Germany attacked soviets some people wrote thick books. For Germany it was a preventive strike as Russians were preparing to stab Germany in the back in 1942. They attacked Russians without winter clothes, winter weapon oil etc. It was a pure gamble for Hitler, which he lost. By all means Russia should've been an ally of Germany in WW2, were it belonged.

In this case may be Russia would've become a democratic country in 1945. And still it remains a totalitarian monstrosity, which is supporting nuclear weapon programmes in N Korea and Iran.

Edit: I've removed "enemy of the western world". A little bit over the top. He-he.

[rtrapasso]

I never read something like this before. It's like US went to war with Iraq because they didn't like the price of the oil.

Golly! [:D]

I didn't say that Hitler attacked the Soviet Union because of those payments - that was in the cards. I said that was ONE of his considerations. I suspect it MIGHT have something to do with the timing of the attack.

[testarossa]

I got that. [:)]

Think about Switzerland. All the money of the Europe and Germans left it intact. What a good topic for a book. And Zurich gnomes still keep their dirty secrets about WW2.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: testarossa

I got that. [:)]

Think about Switzerland. All the money of the Europe and Germans left it intact. What a good topic for a book. And Zurich gnomes still keep their dirty secrets about WW2.

Maybe someone in a hundred years will write the economic story on WW2 based on ancient Swiss banking records...[;)]

[pauk]

greetings....

before few years (6-10 years) i read that Stalin prepared for attack on Germany. But, as we all know, Germans strike before it happend.

This info, journalists wrote, was based on documents found in the russian archives (opened after the fall of communisam), but after that i never heard anything more about those "confidental documents". My guess is that was "standard exclusive story" by journalists.

However, does someone recall this, have additional info?

[eMonticello]

Nobody buys the Lebensraum argument? What about "because Hitler was German"? Or perhaps, because Hitler was anti-Bolshevik? Or maybe because he was an opportunist? As testarossa said, there are lots of books on the origins of the Second World War in Europe.

ORIGINAL: testarossa
To explain why Germany attacked soviets some people wrote thick books. For Germany it was a preventive strike as Russians were preparing to stab Germany in the back in 1942.

[testarossa]

France planted Nazism by treaty of Versailles, but Bolsheviks fertilized the seeds of future war during the 20s, training Luftwaffe and Panzertruppen, supplying contracts to German companies etc. Guderian was a graduate of Russian tank school near Lipetsk. Many of Luftwaffe pilots were Russians' pupils too.

Than Stalin sabotaged 1933 elections, ordering Communists through Comintern not to block with Social Democrats effectively bringing Hitler to power. I guess this time Stalin thought Hitler will crush "rotten" democracies of the West.

And than British helped Hitler in 1936 and 1938. I guess this time they thought Hitler will defend Western Civilization against Bolshevik hordes from the East.

What really matters is outcome of the WW2. 50 mils died. Jews decided to form their own state. British empire collapsed. US, USSR and China had emerged as new world powers.

[shoevarek]

Think about Switzerland. All the money of the Europe and Germans left it intact. What a good topic for a book. And Zurich gnomes still keep their dirty secrets about WW2.

Which one of the European nations has no dirty WWII secrets? French - betrial of allies and colaboration. USSR - mass murders of Russians, Ukrainians, Polish, Tartars etc. UK - betraial of allies, selling POW to Stalin with full knowledge that they are going to be murdered. US - betraial of allies, total ignorance of holocaust, even though the proof of mass murders reached Washington through couriers from German occupied countries.

I mentioned only the biggest powers that were fighting on the "good" side with the full glory of 'freedom fighters'. I am not mentioning "small" countries and nations like Poland or Ukraine - whose antisemitism is usually mentioned with pleasure by many history book authors.

History gave all nations something to be ashamed of. There are no exceptions. Choosen nation can be encountered only in the Bible or in the dream.

[Harald1050]

ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings....

before few years (6-10 years) i read that Stalin prepared for attack on Germany. But, as we all know, Germans strike before it happend.

This info, journalists wrote, was based on documents found in the russian archives (opened after the fall of communisam), but after that i never heard anything more about those "confidental documents". My guess is that was "standard exclusive story" by journalists.

However, does someone recall this, have additional info?

Servus!

Interesting topic.

Well, here are some titles i was reading or i am actually reading (if WITP PBEMs allow this) about "Unternehmen Barbarossa". They are all written in German language, so don't know any english or other language title.

Walter Post; Unternehmen Barbarossa, Deutsche und sowjetische Angriffspläne 1940/41: he describes the political/diplomatic aspects (only a few days before Molotw-Ribbentrop-treaty English and French military negotiated with the Russians for a treaty where the enemy was clearly defined as Germany) and also the military/industrial part (deployment of troops on both sides and the time table). There are some documents of the Int. Military Tribunal of Nürnberg where the highest Generals of the Wehrmacht were questioned about Barbarossa and the time before.

Werner Maser; Der Wortbruch; Hitler, Stalin und der Zweite Weltkrieg: it concentrates on the economical part and also mentions the most important points of the diplomatic "war". Further he tells us about the Russo-Finnish war and the conclusions the Russians took out of this disaster.

Viktor Suvorov; Der Eisbrecher, Hitler in Stalins Kalkül: this is the very first book written after the fall of the iron curtain, when Russian archives were opened and new documents came up. Suvorov examines more the military and the tactical questions, what the Generals said and did then.

If you only take a look at the numbers of tanks, artillery and planes the Russians had compared to Germany you will see that Germany only could win that many battles in the early phase because the Russians were deploying their troops for an offense strike themselves. All mobile troops were deployed directly at the front, airfields, supply points, etc. directly behind the front troops.
If you fear an attack you won't deploy your troops that way nor would you clear minefields tear down bunkers and so on. All this did the Russians and of course the Germans. The Germans were a little bit faster.

The basic rule for the communism is to establish communist states over the whole world. We all know that. The only way to do so successfully is a war. If there is no war no one would revolt against the establishment/government. We only have to look at the end of WW I. Everywhere in Germany and Austria, and of course Russia, soldiers/navy revolted with red flags. So no war, no revolution, no communistic state.
Stalin "needed" Hitler to go to war. Therefore he delivered him the so needed raw materials. Without them the Wehrmacht would have never been able to set a foot on Polen or elsewhere. Hilter knew that, Stalin too. Therefore Stalin cancelled all negotiations with Fance and Britain and made the pact with Hitler. So Hitler had free hand to act the way he did.
And Stalin had the World War he hoped for at the time England and France declared war on Germany.
If Stalin would have signed a treaty with France and Britain, Hitler would have been isolated, without raw materials and in a case of war the Germans again would have had to face a 2 front war.


Allright, enough for now. A really interesting topic where we could discuss and interchange knowledge.

Harald

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings....

before few years (6-10 years) i read that Stalin prepared for attack on Germany. But, as we all know, Germans strike before it happend.

This info, journalists wrote, was based on documents found in the russian archives (opened after the fall of communisam), but after that i never heard anything more about those "confidental documents". My guess is that was "standard exclusive story" by journalists.

However, does someone recall this, have additional info?

After the fall of communism / USSR and forming of independent states (Russia, Ukraine) several closely guarded secrets come to the surface:

#1
It was finally officially confirmed that there were secret annexes to Hitler-Stalin 1939 pact that Russia used to occupy eastern part of Poland. In the west this was always known but USSR always denied it.

#2
It was confirmed that Katyin forest massacre was committed by Russians (just as Germans were claiming during WWII but nobody believed them) when Russian forces occupied eastern part of Poland in 1939. This massacre was committed by NKVD by killing the thousands and thousands of Polish officers (in other words beheading the Polish society because officers active and reserve were the educated cream of Polish society).

#3
It was discovered that there really were Russian plans to start war against Germany. The author of plans (not surprisingly) was Zukov. Russians even today claim that those were only "Staff studies that every army in the world does all the time" but, as one of the posters here wrote, the actual way Russian forces were deployed in 1941 suggest otherwise...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Harald1050]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings....

before few years (6-10 years) i read that Stalin prepared for attack on Germany. But, as we all know, Germans strike before it happend.

This info, journalists wrote, was based on documents found in the russian archives (opened after the fall of communisam), but after that i never heard anything more about those "confidental documents". My guess is that was "standard exclusive story" by journalists.

However, does someone recall this, have additional info?

After the fall of communism / USSR and forming of independent states (Russia, Ukraine) several closely guarded secrets come to the surface:

#1
It was finally officially confirmed that there were secret annexes to Hitler-Stalin 1939 pact that Russia used to occupy eastern part of Poland. In the west this was always known but USSR always denied it.

#2
It was confirmed that Katyin forest massacre was committed by Russians (just as Germans were claiming during WWII but nobody believed them) when Russian forces occupied eastern part of Poland in 1939. This massacre was committed by NKVD by killing the thousands and thousands of Polish officers (in other words beheading the Polish society because officers active and reserve were the educated cream of Polish society).

#3
It was discovered that there really were Russian plans to start war against Germany. The author of plans (not surprisingly) was Zukov. Russians even today claim that those were only "Staff studies that every army in the world does all the time" but, as one of the posters here wrote, the actual way Russian forces were deployed in 1941 suggest otherwise...


Leo "Apollo11"

Servus!

First, don't forget that the annex of the pact also included the Baltic states and Bessarabia.
Surprising that no one declared war to Russia invading Finland, Poland or the Baltic states.

Second, Stalin was "famos" for his purges. 1937 he ordered to execute 3 of 5 marshalls, 14 of 16 army commanders, all 8 admirals, 60 of 67 commanding gernerals, 136 of 199 division commanders, 221 of 397 brigade commanders and some 35000 officers of lower ranks, just 50% of the officers corps of the Sowjetunion.

Third, they made plans how to change the trackseize of the Russian railroad (1524mm) to the foreign/European railroad (1435mm Normalspur) in 1929 (!!!). No country in history made such plans or wasted a thought on that ever. So why did the Russians do so? And 1929, where nobody was thinking of war. Where at that time do you find a good railroad net/infrastructure?

There are many points that makes the picture of the so peaceful and by the German attack surprised Sowjetunion fading away.
But in Germany and Austria this is no thema. Many historians and of course all politicans still are talking of an assault. That is not correct.
They are talking of reappraising our history. Well, then let's do it.

Harald

[testarossa]

Make no mistake. Nazi Germany was going to eliminate all sub-human nations.

First three months of the war Wehrmaht was in confusion. German soldiers were greeted by cheerful civilians with flowers and smiles like liberators. Millions of soviet POWs surrendered and were released (except Jews and commissars). Hitler than clarified the task of german soldiers in the east that they came there not to liberate but take the space for german nation.

80% of Eastern Europe's population were considered untermannshen and were destined for elimination, leaving remainder as slaves. And still field commanders tried whenever possible to enrol locals in the military, 50% of german divisions consisted from hivis (helpers) support staff.

This phenomenon could only be explained that civilian population hated Stalin no less than invaders. Long after the war everybody, whose relatives lived on occupied territories where considered a security risk and were considered second-class citizens (up until 1986).

Thousands of POWs and former slave workers were put into Gulag after the war. This was a revenge of the regime no better than Nazi. Consider losses of USSR during the war 20-30 mils. And russians themsels estimated that communist regime murdered up to 50 mils of own people.

Ask anyone from Estonia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Ukraine if they think they were liberated in 1945. Hungarians rioted in 1956, Ukrainians fought till 1956, Lithuanians fought till 1948. Czechs rioted in 1968, Poland in 1980.

And now J.W. Bush calls former KGB/NKVD thug Vladimir his friend.

[VicKevlar]

Moving on up to General forum..........