OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

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anarchyintheuk
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings....

before few years (6-10 years) i read that Stalin prepared for attack on Germany. But, as we all know, Germans strike before it happend.

This info, journalists wrote, was based on documents found in the russian archives (opened after the fall of communisam), but after that i never heard anything more about those "confidental documents". My guess is that was "standard exclusive story" by journalists.

However, does someone recall this, have additional info?

After the fall of communism / USSR and forming of independent states (Russia, Ukraine) several closely guarded secrets come to the surface:

#1
It was finally officially confirmed that there were secret annexes to Hitler-Stalin 1939 pact that Russia used to occupy eastern part of Poland. In the west this was always known but USSR always denied it.

#2
It was confirmed that Katyin forest massacre was committed by Russians (just as Germans were claiming during WWII but nobody believed them) when Russian forces occupied eastern part of Poland in 1939. This massacre was committed by NKVD by killing the thousands and thousands of Polish officers (in other words beheading the Polish society because officers active and reserve were the educated cream of Polish society).

#3
It was discovered that there really were Russian plans to start war against Germany. The author of plans (not surprisingly) was Zukov. Russians even today claim that those were only "Staff studies that every army in the world does all the time" but, as one of the posters here wrote, the actual way Russian forces were deployed in 1941 suggest otherwise...


Leo "Apollo11"

Regarding #2, the Germans invited neutral officers (Sweden and Portugal?, i forget) to review their forensic work on the site and apparently had excellent evidence agains the Soviets. The Soviets later did their own "forensic examination" of the site (w/o the neutral observers) and, not surprisingly, declared that Germans did it. I think most knowledgeable observers knew who did it, but the US and UK weren't going to upset the allied applecart over something that they couldn't have done anything about.
anarchyintheuk
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: testarossa

And now J.W. Bush calls former KGB/NKVD thug Vladimir his friend.

"Friend" is diplospeak for someone with whom you are not currently at war.
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testarossa
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by testarossa »

He didn't call F. Mitterrand or G. Schroeder a friend, did he?

It’s all about war on terror. Russians don’t help Iraq, US keeps eyes closed on Chechnya.
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Agent Smith
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by Agent Smith »

[quote]This phenomenon could only be explained that civilian population hated Stalin no less than invaders. Long after the war everybody, whose relatives lived on occupied territories where considered a security risk and were considered second-class citizens (up until 1986).

What!? What are you talking about!? Gorbachev himself lived in German occupied territory during war (He was born in 1931). Do you think that a leader of Communist Party (elected 20 years ago - 03.11.1985) is considered a "second class citizen" due to the fact that he lived in occupied territory?
anarchyintheuk
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by anarchyintheuk »

Whenever leaders personally get together they invariably refer to each other as "my friend ____". I'm sure if you go back far enough FDR call Joe Stalin his friend at one of their conferences. It's just a meaningless term. I didn't see any news footage of Bush's trip to Europe so I have no idea of how referred to Mitterand or Schroeder.

Other than lobbing the occasional protest the US has always had its eyes closed about Chechnya, the war in Iraq didn't change that. How was Russia going to help Iraq? Making official instead of unofficial arms sales to insurgents?
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testarossa
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by testarossa »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
Whenever leaders personally get together they invariably refer to each other as "my friend ____". I'm sure if you go back far enough FDR call Joe Stalin his friend at one of their conferences. It's just a meaningless term. I didn't see any news footage of Bush's trip to Europe so I have no idea of how referred to Mitterand or Schroeder.

I got your point from the first time.[:D]I'm just being difficult.
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testarossa
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by testarossa »

ORIGINAL: Agent Smith
What!? What are you talking about!? Gorbachev himself lived in German occupied territory during war (He was born in 1931). Do you think that a leader of Communist Party (elected 20 years ago - 03.11.1986) is considered a "second class citizen" due to the fact that he lived in occupied territory?

Every rule has an exception. What I know for sure that every application in Soviet Union had a line with a question if applicant or his close relatives were on occupied territory during WW2. There was another line too asking about the nationality. It's like asking here about the race.

Obviously harmless things, right. But if you put that you are a German or Jew, your chances to get promotion at work, admitted to prestigeous univercity or visit foreign country were bleak. And still many Jews and Germans took high positions in Communist Party and visited foreign countries. 10 may be 1000. And millions were denied this right.

Your example with Gorbachev is a good one. He was briefly on occupied territory being a kid and than put a lot of effort to prove that he is a very loyal member of the party. And still the only reason he was elected as General Boss of all the commies was a support of KGB chef and previous Secretary General Y. Andropov (the guy who ordered police patrols to search movie theatres for people who were supposed to be at work and detained them). By all means Gorbachev was destined to remain a provincial party leader if not a support of KGB, especially after the death of Andropov.
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Agent Smith
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by Agent Smith »

Some applications (not "all") had a line with such a question. In later USSR the question was about relatives abroad. It was for security reasons. You can find such "security" questions in some applications in your country too.
A nationality line was in Soviet passport. But everyone was able to indicate a nationality at will.It was recorded fom words without any testing
For example if your father is a German and your mother is a Jew - you can write "German", "Jew", "Russian", "Belarusan", "Ukranian" or any of more than 100 nationality that lived in USSR.

A second paragrath is internally controversal and false. Soviet antisemeitism is a propoganda fiction. There is no proof of it existence.

Andropov died 02.09.1984. Gorbachev elected 03.11.1985.
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testarossa
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RE: OT: WWII - How West almost attacked Russia twice...

Post by testarossa »

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