I just have a couple comments regarding some of the "minor power" units in the game. These include both Axis and Allied troops.
Axis:
RSI- this stands for Republica Socialista Italiano. After the surrender of Italy, Mussolini was placed in charge of a puppet regime that in game terms, provided several divisions of rather decent troops, all of which (AFAIK) fought exclusively on the Italian front- whether the relative strength of the Italian front already includes these is unknown ot me.
Ost-truppen- The Germans raised many formations from Soviet citizens, including the Baltic States, Cossacks and various other ethnicities. Many of them ended up fighting on the other fronts (for example, the 162nd Turkoman Infantry Division spent most of it's career in France and Italy), but many units also fought in the East. Several SS formations (mainly Infantry divisions and brigades) were formed from these men, for example, 14 SS Infantry Division (July 1943).
I assume the various Croatian and Albanian units are subsumed into the nasty little partisan war in the Balkans.
Allied:
Poland- In 1944-45, while over-running and even before, the Soviets formed several combined arms Armies worth of Polish troops- about 20 divisions, as well as at least one tank corps, artillery, etc. I would think these deserve to be included, as they saw some rather extensive fighting. To help them out, perhaps some cities in Poland could have rather higher population numbers for the Soviet side.
Romania- Even before the surrender, the USSR raised a handful of Romanian rifle divisions. After the surrender, they were joined by the regular army. To be honest, I lack a lot of details here, but much of the Romanina effort after the surrender was in the Balkans, and fighting/holding secondary sectors.
Hungary, Germany- both countries provided small numbers of units to the Soviet war effort, raised from deserters, POWs and some pre-war emigres- in both cases several rifles divisions worth, though I am not positive they actually fought.
Also in regards to Axis allies: the Slovaks should all dissappear at some point if the Soviets are within X distance of Prague- the Slovaks were anxious to leave the war and came close to successfully revolting when they judged the Soviets were close enough to come to their aid. The Blue Division should probably go home in the Spring of 1944, or whenever reduced below a certain strength. It should NOT reappear if shattered/surrendered. Finland, historically, surrendered as soon as the 1941 border was reached by the Soviets...perhaps adding Viipuri as a minor city and causing them to surrender if it is captured in 1942 or later would be possible?
Anyway, these are just some observation, I don't know how many of them could be implimented even if someone cared to, given the current restrictions to the game engine. I think this is a great game, and has a reasonably good OOB, but given all the info out there, I think there is room to make it even better.
Additional Allies
Additional Allies
Damien Fox
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by Phocks:
I just have a couple comments regarding some of the "minor power" units in the game. These include both Axis and Allied troops.
Some good ideas, but there are problems.
First, and most importantly, there are no free slots for Divisions in the game. Arnaud would have to expand the number of slots for this to happen, but this breaks compatibility and enlarges the memory requirement of the game. This may be impossible to overcome, it depends on how much extra memory would be required.
Secondly, the game does not handle separate "allies" at all. Each side has a single source for infantry replacements, no distinction is made between minor allies and major power forces. Minor power behavior is not handled well either. Arnaud actually got some of the minor powers to surrender when their capitol fell. Believe it or not, that was broken in the original game. Finland isn't handled at all, it doesn't impose severe restrictions on Finnish units that existed historically. Arnaud could get the Slov units to surrender when Prague falls, but the problem is, as you pointed out, many minor powers surrendered to one side or the other even before their capital was even attacked, such as Finland.
I did put your point about the Slovs and the Blue Division in the issues file.
Thanks for the reply. After posting this, I did a little further research, and saw that the game was already at it's "hard" limit for numbers of units...unfortunate, but there it is. I do have a couple work-arounds, though they seem almost more trouble than it's worth. However, I am almost fanatical when it comes to OB accuracy.
First off, the RSI could possibly be handled by having a couple existing Italian divisions change their name, similar to how SS divisions change from Motorized to Panzer over the course of the game...dunno how this owuld work in practice. It might also be possible to lump together some of the Italian forces in the Italian theater, into Corps, subsuming 3 existing untis into one, though some way of preventing them from being tranferred (make them too big for rail?) would then be needed. To be honest, while I like the accuracy, since no RSI untis fought on the Ostfront, this might be too much work for too little effect even if possible.
The Ost truppen, being generally low-quality filler used outside Russia, is probably safest to just ignore. Since Germany is already missing almost a hundred similar low quality/security formations, putting these in would be almost pointless.
For what it's worth, Axis Allies should probably be somewhat errratic in their surrender conditions. Historically, Hungary was successfully kept in the war through a well-timed coup, while Romania and Finland surrendered before they were even occupied. Maybe make their surrenders random. As a side note, when Romania surrendered, it's units cut off quite a few Germans, helping explain the Soviet's quick advance through the Balkans in the Summer of 1944.
On the Soviet side, freeing up unit slots may be easier. Though I currently don't have my sources available, the game gives the Russians 40 Tank Corps and 20 Mech Corps, IIRC. I think that number is too high, though apparently some Guards units were raised seperate from regular Tank/Mech corps. This is getting off the Allied topic however, but it seems that maybe a couple unit slots could be freed up.
As a final aside, it seems to me that the Slovaks never actually employed 3 field divisions during the historical campaign, though I'm going to have to look that up. Also, I would think that the Slovak Corps should be in allied color, rather than German Also, the Finns did in fact raise an Armored Division from their excellent Jager Brigades and captured Soviet tanks. The Hungarians had, in actuality, 2 armored Divisions, and 2 brigade sized motor brigades- not a motorized division. The Romanian Armored Division was there from the start of the campaign, later joined by a motorized division, not vice-versa.
Anyway, I hope someone gathers something useful from all this, I am still trying to monkey with the editor myself.
First off, the RSI could possibly be handled by having a couple existing Italian divisions change their name, similar to how SS divisions change from Motorized to Panzer over the course of the game...dunno how this owuld work in practice. It might also be possible to lump together some of the Italian forces in the Italian theater, into Corps, subsuming 3 existing untis into one, though some way of preventing them from being tranferred (make them too big for rail?) would then be needed. To be honest, while I like the accuracy, since no RSI untis fought on the Ostfront, this might be too much work for too little effect even if possible.
The Ost truppen, being generally low-quality filler used outside Russia, is probably safest to just ignore. Since Germany is already missing almost a hundred similar low quality/security formations, putting these in would be almost pointless.
For what it's worth, Axis Allies should probably be somewhat errratic in their surrender conditions. Historically, Hungary was successfully kept in the war through a well-timed coup, while Romania and Finland surrendered before they were even occupied. Maybe make their surrenders random. As a side note, when Romania surrendered, it's units cut off quite a few Germans, helping explain the Soviet's quick advance through the Balkans in the Summer of 1944.
On the Soviet side, freeing up unit slots may be easier. Though I currently don't have my sources available, the game gives the Russians 40 Tank Corps and 20 Mech Corps, IIRC. I think that number is too high, though apparently some Guards units were raised seperate from regular Tank/Mech corps. This is getting off the Allied topic however, but it seems that maybe a couple unit slots could be freed up.
As a final aside, it seems to me that the Slovaks never actually employed 3 field divisions during the historical campaign, though I'm going to have to look that up. Also, I would think that the Slovak Corps should be in allied color, rather than German Also, the Finns did in fact raise an Armored Division from their excellent Jager Brigades and captured Soviet tanks. The Hungarians had, in actuality, 2 armored Divisions, and 2 brigade sized motor brigades- not a motorized division. The Romanian Armored Division was there from the start of the campaign, later joined by a motorized division, not vice-versa.
Anyway, I hope someone gathers something useful from all this, I am still trying to monkey with the editor myself.
Damien Fox
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
I found a list of Russian,Baltic etc SS divisions. One game I made I remade the Volks divisions into SS Grenaider divisons. 1944 scenario actually has a few in it. Here is a list of some divisions I found in various books I have.
29th SS Gren (1st Russian)div
30th SS Gren (2nd Russian)div
15th SS Gren (1st Latvian)div
20th SS Gren (1st Estonian)div
23rd SS Mntn Kama (2nd Croat)div
19th SS Gren (2nd Latvian)div
25th SS Gren Hunyadi (1st Hungarian)div
29th SS Gren (1st Italian)div
33rd SS Charlemgne (1st French)div
21st SS Mntn Skanderbeg (1st Albanian)div
34th SS Landstorm Nederland (Netherlands)div
27th SS Gren Langemark (Denmark)div
28th SS Wallonien (Belgium)PzG
23rd SS Nederlander (Netherlands)PzG
The 357th Infantry division and a few others were formed with alot of Croation volanteers and the 32nd and 39th infantry divisions after heavy losses in Russia.
29th SS Gren (1st Russian)div
30th SS Gren (2nd Russian)div
15th SS Gren (1st Latvian)div
20th SS Gren (1st Estonian)div
23rd SS Mntn Kama (2nd Croat)div
19th SS Gren (2nd Latvian)div
25th SS Gren Hunyadi (1st Hungarian)div
29th SS Gren (1st Italian)div
33rd SS Charlemgne (1st French)div
21st SS Mntn Skanderbeg (1st Albanian)div
34th SS Landstorm Nederland (Netherlands)div
27th SS Gren Langemark (Denmark)div
28th SS Wallonien (Belgium)PzG
23rd SS Nederlander (Netherlands)PzG
The 357th Infantry division and a few others were formed with alot of Croation volanteers and the 32nd and 39th infantry divisions after heavy losses in Russia.
Hello Phocks
In reply to several points.
1) The Soviet union started Barbarossa with 62 Tank divisions and 33 Mechanized/Motorised divisions. The game rightly converts the Mech./Mot. Divisions to rifle divisions, and then converts the 58 appearing tank divisions into Tank/Mech. Corps. IIRC buy the time of Kursk, the Soviet union had about 270 Tank & Mech brigades in service/training, which is more than ample to form up 58 tank/Mech. Corps
2) I have found in researching a new 41 OOB ( for my own use, its not offical.)that the Soviet Rifle Divisions stopped at 422nd ( effectivly they stopped at 399th as the only divisions to see service after the 399th where 402nd, 412th, and 422nd.
What this means is that I was wondering what I was goint to replace the 407st to 464th (ex c. 412,& 422) rifle divisions with. You have given me the answer! I shall modify them to be Poles! ( basicly a name change & change of nationallity to Guards, so they don't convert to Guards divisions when their experience hits 80)
In reply to several points.
1) The Soviet union started Barbarossa with 62 Tank divisions and 33 Mechanized/Motorised divisions. The game rightly converts the Mech./Mot. Divisions to rifle divisions, and then converts the 58 appearing tank divisions into Tank/Mech. Corps. IIRC buy the time of Kursk, the Soviet union had about 270 Tank & Mech brigades in service/training, which is more than ample to form up 58 tank/Mech. Corps
2) I have found in researching a new 41 OOB ( for my own use, its not offical.)that the Soviet Rifle Divisions stopped at 422nd ( effectivly they stopped at 399th as the only divisions to see service after the 399th where 402nd, 412th, and 422nd.
What this means is that I was wondering what I was goint to replace the 407st to 464th (ex c. 412,& 422) rifle divisions with. You have given me the answer! I shall modify them to be Poles! ( basicly a name change & change of nationallity to Guards, so they don't convert to Guards divisions when their experience hits 80)
"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
Finland NEVER surrendered. We made cease-fire and later peace, Paris 1948. Finland fought all summer 1944 with great success in Tali-Ihantala defensive battles, and finnish army was never routed/beated. Russians agreed to cease fire after their grand offensive had ground to standstill and having suffered terrible losses. They wanted to concentrate on crushing Germany.
The initial cease-fire talks in spring 1944 were failure, since russians then demanded full capitulation. Having their noses bloodied in summer's fighting, they agreed to cease-fire in the autumn WITHOUT demand of unconditional surrender.
Get your facts straight, perkele.
Regards,
Kettu
The initial cease-fire talks in spring 1944 were failure, since russians then demanded full capitulation. Having their noses bloodied in summer's fighting, they agreed to cease-fire in the autumn WITHOUT demand of unconditional surrender.
Get your facts straight, perkele.
Regards,
Kettu
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by Phocks:
As a final aside, it seems to me that the Slovaks never actually employed 3 field divisions during the historical campaign, though I'm going to have to look that up. Also, I would think that the Slovak Corps should be in allied color, rather than German
This is a problem as the game currently can't support units suddenly switching sides. You would need an extra Soviet slot, so the Slov corps starts with the Germans and switches when the Soviets get close, this would require some work on Arnaud's part, but I can't really justify this to him at this point over a weak corps the Soviet player doesn't care about anyway. By '44 the Soviet player has more rifle and tank divisions than he knows what to do with.
The Hungarians had, in actuality, 2 armored Divisions, and 2 brigade sized motor brigades- not a motorized division.
The Romanian Armored Division was there from the start of the campaign, later joined by a motorized division, not vice-versa.
I'll ask about this.
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MagnusOlsson
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In reply to Possum, I think that the Soviet OOB had probably be placed as another thread. For my two cents worth though, 3 tank brigades does NOT equal a tank corps. The Soviets had a severe shortage of signallers and equipment the whole war, and of technical troops in general. A tank brigade is relatively easy to raise and utilise. A corps (a division sized unit for Soviet tank troops, in case anyone may be confusing it with a Western-style corps of 3+ divisions) requires all sorts of supporting arms that historically, the Soviets were unable or unwilling to provide 60 Corps worth. The Soviets used FAR more independant tank brigades/regiments than the game shows...though the unti total limit obviously prohibits displaying them all, and there would be no room for them anyway. I think that starting a Soviet OOB thread would definitely be a good thing.
Further investigation does reveal that some Corps converted to Guards were re-raised as normal corps later, but I can't really tell how many. For what it's worth, exiled Polish troops formed at least one Tank Corps outside the normal numbering system, and the Czechs formed a motor rifle corps (3 or 4 brigades) that I have almost no info on unfortunately. By the way, the Tank Armies (and their very limited number) is an excellent way to show Soviet C3I problems, though they did form a 6th later int he war...several were changed to guards status later on, as were a total of 8 or 9 combined arms armies...no point in changing though, except for color.
Anyway, as I said, this is getting a bit off the original topic. BTW, when I said make the Slovaks Allied color, I meant to say AXIS-Allied, i.e., the same as the Romanians et al. The Slovaks WERE disarmed after the insurrection, but didn't fight for the Allies..though as I said above, several Czech exile formations were raised by the Soviets, apparently including several rifle divisions and a motorized corps (division-sized).
Further investigation does reveal that some Corps converted to Guards were re-raised as normal corps later, but I can't really tell how many. For what it's worth, exiled Polish troops formed at least one Tank Corps outside the normal numbering system, and the Czechs formed a motor rifle corps (3 or 4 brigades) that I have almost no info on unfortunately. By the way, the Tank Armies (and their very limited number) is an excellent way to show Soviet C3I problems, though they did form a 6th later int he war...several were changed to guards status later on, as were a total of 8 or 9 combined arms armies...no point in changing though, except for color.
Anyway, as I said, this is getting a bit off the original topic. BTW, when I said make the Slovaks Allied color, I meant to say AXIS-Allied, i.e., the same as the Romanians et al. The Slovaks WERE disarmed after the insurrection, but didn't fight for the Allies..though as I said above, several Czech exile formations were raised by the Soviets, apparently including several rifle divisions and a motorized corps (division-sized).
Damien Fox
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
To Kettu:
>Finland fought all summer 1944 with great success in Tali-Ihantala defensive battles
This was hardly a successful battle per se. The Soviets pushed the Finns back to the 1940 border in a matter of a week, then after major reinforcments from Germany and their extended supply lines ended this rapid advance, proceeded to strip most of the troops from Leningrad Front to the 1st 2nd and 3rd Baltic fronts.
>finnish army was never routed/beated
I never claimed it was...in fact, the Finns were amongst the very best soldiers, man-for-man, in the entire war. They were also outnumbered far more heavily than any concievable skill could overcome, a fact that they seemed to accept at the time.
>The initial cease-fire talks in spring 1944 were failure
Yes, because the Soviets were too overconfident. They knew they could conquer Finland, if they NEEDED to. They made the mistake of assuming the Finns knew that too. You are however correct, Finland didn't UNCONDITIONALLY surrender. However, the Soviets had by this time realized that conquering Finland, while certainly not beyond their capabilities, would be more expensive than strategically useful. They therefor presented the Finnish Government with an ultimatum requiring that Finland give up all the land captured in the Continuation War, provide a base at Porkalla, and pay large reparatins...in addition to fighting any Germans who preferred not to evacuate. Mannerheim personally requested Parliament to sign immediatly, as he knew a renewed Soviet offensive would simply over-run the army, and that stalling would in all probability stiffen Soviet demands. In any case, they did in fact CONDITIONALLY surrender, in the sense of accepting negative conditions imposed by an adversary under duress. Incidentally, the terms finally "accepted" by the Finns had been offered by the Soviets in January 1944, at which time the Finns rejected them as too harsh. Stalin then apparently got mad at the "uppity Finns" and decided to teach them a lesson, which he eventually did at a much higher cost than he was willing to pay for a peripheral theater.
[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Phocks ]
>Finland fought all summer 1944 with great success in Tali-Ihantala defensive battles
This was hardly a successful battle per se. The Soviets pushed the Finns back to the 1940 border in a matter of a week, then after major reinforcments from Germany and their extended supply lines ended this rapid advance, proceeded to strip most of the troops from Leningrad Front to the 1st 2nd and 3rd Baltic fronts.
>finnish army was never routed/beated
I never claimed it was...in fact, the Finns were amongst the very best soldiers, man-for-man, in the entire war. They were also outnumbered far more heavily than any concievable skill could overcome, a fact that they seemed to accept at the time.
>The initial cease-fire talks in spring 1944 were failure
Yes, because the Soviets were too overconfident. They knew they could conquer Finland, if they NEEDED to. They made the mistake of assuming the Finns knew that too. You are however correct, Finland didn't UNCONDITIONALLY surrender. However, the Soviets had by this time realized that conquering Finland, while certainly not beyond their capabilities, would be more expensive than strategically useful. They therefor presented the Finnish Government with an ultimatum requiring that Finland give up all the land captured in the Continuation War, provide a base at Porkalla, and pay large reparatins...in addition to fighting any Germans who preferred not to evacuate. Mannerheim personally requested Parliament to sign immediatly, as he knew a renewed Soviet offensive would simply over-run the army, and that stalling would in all probability stiffen Soviet demands. In any case, they did in fact CONDITIONALLY surrender, in the sense of accepting negative conditions imposed by an adversary under duress. Incidentally, the terms finally "accepted" by the Finns had been offered by the Soviets in January 1944, at which time the Finns rejected them as too harsh. Stalin then apparently got mad at the "uppity Finns" and decided to teach them a lesson, which he eventually did at a much higher cost than he was willing to pay for a peripheral theater.
[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Phocks ]
Damien Fox
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
Hey Kettu, man!Originally posted by Kettu:
Finland NEVER surrendered. We made cease-fire and later peace, Paris 1948. Finland fought all summer 1944 with great success in Tali-Ihantala defensive battles, and finnish army was never routed/beated. Russians agreed to cease fire after their grand offensive had ground to standstill and having suffered terrible losses. They wanted to concentrate on crushing Germany.
The initial cease-fire talks in spring 1944 were failure, since russians then demanded full capitulation. Having their noses bloodied in summer's fighting, they agreed to cease-fire in the autumn WITHOUT demand of unconditional surrender.
Get your facts straight, perkele.
Regards,
Kettu
Why to begin hostilities? Our peoples did a good deal during WWII. You did not cut off Leningrad during blockade and as a gift, USSR did not force your country to unconditional surrender after Germany was completely beaten. We're friends, realy!
Personaly, I have very warm feelings to Finns.I think the solution is obvious, the finns, who never surrendered, (and rarely made war) have too many units in the game.
Reducing their slots would reduce their impact on the leningrad sector, making the game more historical, and free up some space for a couple of the more significant oddball units.
Perhaps halve their divisions, make the remaining ones stronger and rename them "corps".
If you were going to add (say) 6 units to the game, which would you choose?
Reducing their slots would reduce their impact on the leningrad sector, making the game more historical, and free up some space for a couple of the more significant oddball units.
Perhaps halve their divisions, make the remaining ones stronger and rename them "corps".
If you were going to add (say) 6 units to the game, which would you choose?
Dear Sirs,
Uhhuh... Maybe I was too harsh in my wording. Really wasn't my intention to sound hostile, as I did. I wanted to get some word in when it comes to discussion my countrymen fighting the WW2.
On this other forum (third reich factbook something), which DID annoy me, someone was saying that finns were cowards and scum who had fled from the war stabbing Germany in the back.... Some Nazi-punk kid, most likely.
I thought getting out of the war just plain act of solid finnish common-sense. In general, finns did not fight to the last man in desperate situation... Sometimes finnish soldiers RAN like ...uh... pillastunut sonnilauma... or something.
Phocks, you seem to know your stuff. You put me in shame; I need to read books about finnish history too. Wargamers in general are pretty well informed people.
No intention to undermine russians. Russian bravery and endurance in WW2 was unmatched.
Kettu
Uhhuh... Maybe I was too harsh in my wording. Really wasn't my intention to sound hostile, as I did. I wanted to get some word in when it comes to discussion my countrymen fighting the WW2.
On this other forum (third reich factbook something), which DID annoy me, someone was saying that finns were cowards and scum who had fled from the war stabbing Germany in the back.... Some Nazi-punk kid, most likely.
I thought getting out of the war just plain act of solid finnish common-sense. In general, finns did not fight to the last man in desperate situation... Sometimes finnish soldiers RAN like ...uh... pillastunut sonnilauma... or something.
Phocks, you seem to know your stuff. You put me in shame; I need to read books about finnish history too. Wargamers in general are pretty well informed people.
No intention to undermine russians. Russian bravery and endurance in WW2 was unmatched.
Kettu
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by Martinov:
I think the solution is obvious, the finns, who never surrendered, (and rarely made war) have too many units in the game.
I don't know about this. Some people will want to be able to use Finnish forces aggressively, doing things they know didn't happen historically. We should give them that option.
The slots to use are some of the useless weak divisions like Lt. Hun, Italian, and Rumanian divisions. Maybe even the Security divisions too. For the Soviets, drop some of the infantry divisions that arrive late in the war. The Soviet player by this time probaby has more infantry divisions than he has space on the front line, and this includes a dozen or more corps backing up the front line.
But only after their commanders told them to... only 347 cases were recorded where men refused orders or fled during the wars.Originally posted by Kettu:
I thought getting out of the war just plain act of solid finnish common-sense. In general, finns did not fight to the last man in desperate situation... Sometimes finnish soldiers RAN like ...uh... pillastunut sonnilauma... or something.Kettu
Elämä on laiffii
I have been looking into the minor Axis OOBs, and I think that a good way to represent the HUngarians, at least, might be to show the units at one size larger at each level- for example, 3rd and 4th Hungarian Corps become 2nd and 3rd Hungarian Armies, and allt he Hungarian Infantry Division are subsumed into 6 "Corps"- all Division sized units. Since Hungarian units were generally smaller and poorly armed compared to German/Russian formations, this would show their combat strength more realistically I think. Also, the "Karpathian Hungarian Corps" Should probably be replaced with "Expeditionary Corps", a composite unit. Note that in 1941, only the following Hungarian units fought in the USSR:
1st Motorized BRIGADE
2nd Motorized BRIGADE
1 Cavalry BRIGADE
light supporting units...the artillery was particularly weak. A mountain brigade fought in the carpathians, but withdrew after 10 days of operations. I suggest treating the unit as a Motorized Division, with a total of approximatly 60 tanks (R-35s will do, though they were really indiginous Toldis), 72 Recon vehicles, 60 AT (all 37mm though), 18 Flak and 64 Artillery, and finally about 300 Squads- these were large brigades. The Experience should be however fairly low, they fought rather poorly during the Summer of 41.
This re-orginasation would provide about 3 extra divisional slots, as well as portraying the Hungarian Army a lot more accuratly.
Here is what I propose the Hungarians end up with:
Starting- HQ unit "Hungarian Army"
Corps marker "1st Army"
Corps marker "2nd Army"
Corps Marker "3rd Army"
Note: these all start far back in Hungary
Unit "Expedionary Corps"
Note: See above for strength, attached to AG South intitially, as Hungary didn't enter the war until June 26th, active operations starting even later
9 Units "I Corps-IX Corps"
Note: All start as normal infantry divisions, with abysmal experience and poor equipment. This gives the German incentive to let them sit in Hungary training for a long time, as happened historically
Later in the war, Hungary organized two Armored Divisions and some motorized formations...but they used the forces comprising the Expeditionary Corps to form them. Dunno if they would more reasonably represented as a single unit or 4 Divisional units, all were rather weak by German/Soviet standards, but still useful.
A note, they used many locally built tanks, perhaps a factory for Budapest needs to be added. Perhaps the Me 109 factory, since I can find no evidence that they were ever manufactured there. Finally, Hungary provided the Reich's last natural oil production, at Lake Balaton near Budapest...this was the reason that the very last large German offensive of the war was launched there in 1945.
Next up: The Romanians!
1st Motorized BRIGADE
2nd Motorized BRIGADE
1 Cavalry BRIGADE
light supporting units...the artillery was particularly weak. A mountain brigade fought in the carpathians, but withdrew after 10 days of operations. I suggest treating the unit as a Motorized Division, with a total of approximatly 60 tanks (R-35s will do, though they were really indiginous Toldis), 72 Recon vehicles, 60 AT (all 37mm though), 18 Flak and 64 Artillery, and finally about 300 Squads- these were large brigades. The Experience should be however fairly low, they fought rather poorly during the Summer of 41.
This re-orginasation would provide about 3 extra divisional slots, as well as portraying the Hungarian Army a lot more accuratly.
Here is what I propose the Hungarians end up with:
Starting- HQ unit "Hungarian Army"
Corps marker "1st Army"
Corps marker "2nd Army"
Corps Marker "3rd Army"
Note: these all start far back in Hungary
Unit "Expedionary Corps"
Note: See above for strength, attached to AG South intitially, as Hungary didn't enter the war until June 26th, active operations starting even later
9 Units "I Corps-IX Corps"
Note: All start as normal infantry divisions, with abysmal experience and poor equipment. This gives the German incentive to let them sit in Hungary training for a long time, as happened historically
Later in the war, Hungary organized two Armored Divisions and some motorized formations...but they used the forces comprising the Expeditionary Corps to form them. Dunno if they would more reasonably represented as a single unit or 4 Divisional units, all were rather weak by German/Soviet standards, but still useful.
A note, they used many locally built tanks, perhaps a factory for Budapest needs to be added. Perhaps the Me 109 factory, since I can find no evidence that they were ever manufactured there. Finally, Hungary provided the Reich's last natural oil production, at Lake Balaton near Budapest...this was the reason that the very last large German offensive of the war was launched there in 1945.
Next up: The Romanians!
Damien Fox
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
Phocks,Originally posted by Phocks:
Starting- HQ unit "Hungarian Army"
Corps marker "1st Army"
Corps marker "2nd Army"
Corps Marker "3rd Army"
Note: these all start far back in Hungary
Unit "Expedionary Corps"
Note: See above for strength, attached to AG South intitially, as Hungary didn't enter the war until June 26th, active operations starting even later
9 Units "I Corps-IX Corps"
Note: All start as normal infantry divisions, with abysmal experience and poor equipment. This gives the German incentive to let them sit in Hungary training for a long time, as happened historically
Theses are good ideas, the only fly in the ointment is with experience growth of the Axis minor allies. As the game now functions, minor allies start at 20% experience and stay at that experience level unless they participate in combat. That fact incourages the German player to use these units early when the Soviet forces are realitive weak so the minor allies can gain some experience.
Svar
It seems that it'll be changed in next release Svar. So, I think that removing this units would be unhistoricaly. But there also should be a way to force player to use these units historicaly. Not as rear-sitting-zero-replacements-partizan-scaring ducks.Originally posted by Svar:
Phocks,
Theses are good ideas, the only fly in the ointment is with experience growth of the Axis minor allies. As the game now functions, minor allies start at 20% experience and stay at that experience level unless they participate in combat. That fact incourages the German player to use these units early when the Soviet forces are realitive weak so the minor allies can gain some experience.
Svar
Well, the soviets did push us back fast when they attacked. It was primarily because of two reasons:Originally posted by Phocks:
To Kettu:
>Finland fought all summer 1944 with great success in Tali-Ihantala defensive battles
This was hardly a successful battle per se. The Soviets pushed the Finns back to the 1940 border in a matter of a week, then after major reinforcments from Germany and their extended supply lines ended this rapid advance, proceeded to strip most of the troops from Leningrad Front to the 1st 2nd and 3rd Baltic fronts.
>finnish army was never routed/beated
I never claimed it was...in fact, the Finns were amongst the very best soldiers, man-for-man, in the entire war. They were also outnumbered far more heavily than any concievable skill could overcome, a fact that they seemed to accept at the time.
[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Phocks ]
1. During the "trench war", finnish army got demoralised. Nothing much seemed to happen, they just sat there. In fact, large parts of finnish army were sent home to help the economy.
2. Soviets had overwhelming advantage when it came to firepower and manpower. And finns had more frontier to defend than they did during the winter war.
Still they were stopped in Tali-Ihantala (I remember reading somewhere that Tali-Ihantala is among the biggest battles of the entire WW2 (dunno if that's true, sad to say, I don't know muc about Tali-Ihantala. Anybody can recommend any books to bring me up to speed?).
As for the Soviets invading entire Finland... Well, of course they could have done it. At the expense of reducing their troops elsewhere. And the battle deeper inside Finland would have been different. Just look at the map! Alot of lakes, nothing but forests where-ever you look. The roads that go through the lake-region are easy to defend. And more they advanced, the defenders would have got even more fanatic. They would have stuck their head in to a meat-grinder if you ask me.
This site gives a short version on how it happened:
http://www.kaiku.com/notcapitulate.html
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Nemesis ]
oderint dum metuant
Yogi Yogan had already risen the question about Finn tank division and he even made it to appear in his scenario modifications.Originally posted by Phocks:
the Finns did in fact raise an Armored Division from their excellent Jager Brigades and captured Soviet tanks. The Hungarians had, in actuality, 2 armored Divisions, and 2 brigade sized motor brigades- not a motorized division. The Romanian Armored Division was there from the start of the campaign, later joined by a motorized division, not vice-versa.
Anyway, I hope someone gathers something useful from all this, I am still trying to monkey with the editor myself.
I've found some info that elements of Romanian tank division first seen action in battle for Kishinev. Don't know their exact numbers at that moment though.