1942 Scenario - Missing Soviet Tank Units

[matt.buttsworth]

Found another interesting aspect of the 1942 scenario game.
In the 1941 game the Soviets have 56 tanks divisions (divisions 1-55 plus Moscow Tank corps) with two very strong ones coming in Autumn.
In the 1942 scenario they only have 29 (tank corps 1-29) with only two weak tank corps coming in July.
The Soviets therefore have only half the tank units they would have if you played on from 1941 June into the 1942 June start of the 1942 scenario.
Very strange. Makes it hard to play Soviet.

[Patris]

No, not so strange, in Spring '42 the Soviets had less than half tanks than in '41.
The problem is that if you play from '41, or you don't lose so much tanks, or the game replace the losses too speedy (probably both).

[matt.buttsworth]

Not sure I agree Fabio.
Even if the Soviet tanks losses were very heavy, which they were. The units should still be there allowing them to be gradually rebuilt as Soviet tank production increases.
Without the units being there it is impossible to rebuild them and harder to defend in the 1942 scenario.
If the problem is tank numbers then it would be better to have the 56 tank corps each with much less tanks in them, rather than 29 with many tanks.
How would the germans be with half their Panzer corps missing (they too suffered extensive losses in the 1941 winter). That would make playing german impossible.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Fabio:
No, not so strange, in Spring '42 the Soviets had less than half tanks than in '41.
The problem is that if you play from '41, or you don't lose so much tanks, or the game replace the losses too speedy (probably both).

Yes, probably both. In a historical setting my guess is they're better off with half the tank units because the USSR lost so many in '41 they couldn't provide enough replacements to fully supply 50 odd tank divisions. My memory of playing '41 as the Soviets was many tank divisions in '42 were still pathetically weak because tank production hadn't ramped up enough to support so many tank units.

[Lokioftheaesir]

Fabio

Are you still alive.

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]

[RickyB]

Acutally, guys (unfortunately no gals I guess) there is one thing missing to this series of posts. As JustAGame posted elsewhere recently stated, a number of the tank divisions from 1941 automatically convert to mech corps in April 1942, according to Arnaud's editwir document. Basically what happens at that point is that the first 40 tank division slots convert to tank corps, while the following 20 tank division slots convert to mech corps.

In reviewing the full 1942 campaign scenario with editwir, this is exactly the structure it has. There are 40 tank corps total and 20 mech corps, but none of the mech corps appear for awhile. I believe this is fairly historical, although I am not sure what happens with the mech corps in the 1941 campaign after conversion - it seems like they are not present for awhile.

Anyway, it appears to me that the 1942 scenario is fine regarding the numbers of tank and mech units for the Soviets.

[matt.buttsworth]

thank you for that Ricky.
I did not know they turned up anyway. That was exactly the information I was wanting. The scenario is then as well balanced as any other.
I did know the mechanized corps were missing but not that they were coming or that all the missing units were mechanized corps. You are as knowledgeable as always. Hope the weather today in Finland was good.

[Phocks]

The real problem with all this is that historially, the Soviets had even FEWER tank/mech Corps than this- to be precise, after the summer of 1942, NO tank or mech untis were added, just shuffled around to Guards status. Also, in real life, most of the mech formations were raised from Guards rifle divisions or Tanks Corps (not all though). From January 43 till the end of the war, there were 24 Tank and 14 Mech Corps- an additional, Polish, Tank Corps was raised in the Fall of 1944, as well as several Polish Combined Arms armies. The majoeity of Soviet tankstrength was in the HUNDREDS of independent battalions, Regiments and Brigades raised starting in the summer of 1941. The Soviets simply had too few specialists to man any more Corps than this, the smaller independant units were much easier to raise and maintain.

I think it would be realistic if every Guards rifle unit was given an SPG regiment in late 43, and a tank battalion in 44- by the end of the war, virtually all rifle formations had attached SPGs at the least.

Another note- Cavalry formations in the Soviet Army are grossly overstrength in the game, but also lacking the armored support that the units still operational began to recieve in the fall of 1943. That is however, another topic.