Idea how to finally balance the bombers (Allied and Japanese) in WitP...

[Mr.Frag]

You going to make that into a Poll? [:'(]

[mogami]

LOL I'm afraid to.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

***Now how the game ever got out of the gates with the "bugs" intact,supposedly with so many "playtesters",is anybodies guess......
I love the game,but a "yes man" may have served Matrix worse than he served us,because something like this can hurt sales,and if Matrix trusted somebody to tell the truth in the testing,and just got their "backside-smooched",well,it was a dis-service and a lack of trust of the "playtester"..

m10bob....You are being unfair. It's everyone's fault.., and it's no-one's fault. 2b3 seems to have underestimated the difficulties they would run into in trying to "scale up" UV into WITP. I'm sure they thought that a lot of the same code could be re-used, and they tried to do so. Unfortunately, the land movement code that works OK for a small campaign between Pt. Moresby and Buna falls to pieces on the Asian Mainland. Trying to add in a production system for the Japanese sounded like a good idea, but ate up resources that might better have gone to improvements in the ground war. And all of us out here kept asking for more and different things. They really tried to please too many of us, and wound up spread too thin and depending on too much previous code and making too many people unhappy with something or the other.
They bit off a really big bite in trying, and just wound up without enough resources to meet the demand. And they got
tired of fighting with it. All understandable, if dissappointing.

And the playtesters labored very hard under some difficult situations. The task was enormous---to do it right they would have had to play through a 1600+ turn game at least 100 times! Utterly impossible..., expecially when you remember that a new "version" was coming down the pipe about every 10 days and requiring a re-start. Yes, they missed things! And I'm sure they all wished they'd had more time and more help to try..., but remember all the pressure from the rest of us to get it finished so we could play too. They did a hell of a job under very difficult circumstances. Could they have done
better with more time and less pressure. Probably..., but that wasn't the situation they faced. They tested what they could as much as they could, and even made the extra effort to report to all of us. And they did find a number of problems that it turned out 2by3 couldn't/wouldn't fix because of hard coding problems. They busted their collective butts for the rest of us, and deserve better than cheap shots from the peanut gallery

Too much was attempted by too few people on a limited budget. It's aggrivating that some things don't seem to be "getting fixed" as many of us want. It's frustraiting. and it's dissappointing. And maybe in time they will open the code base so some of the "geniuses" out in the crowd can show what they can do. But in the meantime, give the guys a break.
Offer all the constructive criticism you want. It may not help, but it will give others ideas, and maybe eventually lead to additional improvements. I've certainly got my "pet projects", and I'm sure the designers and the testors know about them. But I don't try to pick on the people. I've groaned about "poor choices" that have locked out other possibilities---but I'm not about to tell the folks who happened to make them that they weren't trying. They made the best choice they thought they could at the time. Sometimes it was, sometimes it wasn't. I can wish that they had left the code more flexible, but since I can't write code wishing is all I can do.

[Yamato hugger]

I was a playtester on Avalon Hills computer version of Third Reich. I LOVED the boardgame (still do) and was excited to be a part of it. AH had their ideas on what they wanted the computer version to be and to be able to do. They didnt have a forum for the testers, in fact they didnt want us talking amongst ourselves (we did anyway). The testers wanted that game to be playable via e mail and without exception we felt developement of the AI was secondary. AH felt that it should be first and foremost a 1 player game with 2 player hot seat option.

We were to test the AI and check to make sure the sequence of play worked as it should. Period. When it was released, there wasnt even an option for e mail play. In the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of games I played, when I was the allied player the AI never once even threw me out of France. Not once! But AH considered it "good enough" and turned it loose. After the game was released and AH started getting feedback from the general public, they tried to put an e mail option into it and do some of the other fixes we had asked for but hadnt listened to us. I had asked AH to leave my name off the list of testers, but they didnt. Im listed.

There are a lot of things I would like to see changed in this game. They could go on forever changing things, and still people would want more (including me). This game is very enjoyable as is. I think we all agree on that.

The point to this rambling is I would like to personally thank the testers, I know how much really truely hard work and frustrations are involved in it. And I would especially like to thank 2 by 3. They are open enough to listen, and try their best to accomidate us. Not only did they listen to the testers but us as well. You can not fully appreciate that until you have been on the other end. At some point the designers have to draw a line and say "thats it". And we will have to live with it when they do.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: m10bob

***Now how the game ever got out of the gates with the "bugs" intact,supposedly with so many "playtesters",is anybodies guess......
I love the game,but a "yes man" may have served Matrix worse than he served us,because something like this can hurt sales,and if Matrix trusted somebody to tell the truth in the testing,and just got their "backside-smooched",well,it was a dis-service and a lack of trust of the "playtester"..

m10bob....You are being unfair.

Hi Mike !
The only "bugs" I was referring to were:
1.The infamous "leader bug",and
2.The inability to night intercept night bomber missions
To date,(if I can read the threads correctly,neither required thousands of test hours to discern,and both have been recognized as major problems,(being worked on as I understand it).Please don't kill this messenger,I'm just standing in a real long line of fellow gamers,*and* Matrix supporters..
I made an error in sending Mog a private e-mail so he would not think I was picking on him in particular,(I have no idea who the testers are,I don't even read the screen credits on the game itself,and I am also a game tester elsewhere),if anybody felt I was picking on them personally,that was never an intent..
I have been around here myself for years.It was not to pick people apart.(This is currently my 4th or maybe 5th registry,each time losing the "thread number".Marc has always been kind enough to get me back in,(with each failed HD)..
If need be,re-read my thread,and jnotice I said nothing but the truth.
Indeed,2 major bugs DID get past all testers,and for all I know,maybe they were reported by the testers before release..Maybe the game company itself went ahead and kept to a pre-determined release date anyway,(as a marketing expedient/priority)..
If somehow my comment puts me on a "blacklist" after being a fan for YEARS,I think maybe somebodies priorities are mis-placed? [&:]

[mogami]

Hi, The leader bug is a post release creation.
Intercepting night missions by non night fighter groups is not a bug. To intercept night missions you need two things.
1. Fighters equipped for night flying (radar equiped)
2. A baseforce with radar.

I was not responding to bobs post. I was responding to the post where it was mentioned that it had been brought up before that the testers were the problem. That somehow the testers should take over design decisions.

The manner the leaderbug appears is only now being understood. and measures taken to prevent it. I have not heard of anyone (tester or player) who has been able to "capture" it in reproducable form with a save.

It was very hard for me at least to predict everything that a player could do in the course of a game. Many of the things that produce bugs are players attempting to circumvent the system. We tested ways to do this but of course I only tested ways I could think of.
My personal belief is that the leader bug is somehow connected to the number of groups (land and air) exceeding the number of slots provided. But I never split every single group
and then played 100 or more turns checking every group and TF each turn.

At the time 2by3 decided to go with a final version we didn't have any known bugs.
But of course they contiuned to introduce new features because the testers continued to post AAR and suggestion/requests kept coming in.
KID or Joel would have to say how many versions were made between the time the "final " version was declared and the actual "release" version was posted. They came quite often.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Now about the case of beer. You do admit you can afford it if you don't waste your money on "whats-her-name" first.
I ask you (and the public at large) who is more deserving and a better use for your ill gotten gains. Beer for Mog or shoes for the floozy out for your money?[X(]

**********************SHOES*****************

[foliveti]

Just my two cents. But for all of its faults WitP has been a dream come true for me. I bought the SPI version of War in the Pacific back in 1980. I was fascinated by its detail and all of the logistical and other aspect that it covered. The problem was that between space and time requirements it was completely unplayable. WitP takes a lot of that detail and in some ways adds to it. It also has the added benefit of being playable. There were some interesting features of the old SPI game that I wish were in the version we are playing now, but they are not. It took about 12 years or so to get from the original PACWAR to WitP. What we have now is a tremendous leap. I think we can chew on this version for quite a few years before someone comes out with the next generation of WitP.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Now about the case of beer. You do admit you can afford it if you don't waste your money on "whats-her-name" first.
I ask you (and the public at large) who is more deserving and a better use for your ill gotten gains. Beer for Mog or shoes for the floozy out for your money?[X(]

**********************SHOES*****************

Hi, Oh you are so blacklisted now. [:-]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: foliveti

Just my two cents. But for all of its faults WitP has been a dream come true for me. I bought the SPI version of War in the Pacific back in 1980. I was fascinated by its detail and all of the logistical and other aspect that it covered. The problem was that between space and time requirements it was completely unplayable. WitP takes a lot of that detail and in some ways adds to it. It also has the added benefit of being playable. There were some interesting features of the old SPI game that I wish were in the version we are playing now, but they are not. It took about 12 years or so to get from the original PACWAR to WitP. What we have now is a tremendous leap. I think we can chew on this version for quite a few years before someone comes out with the next generation of WitP.

AMEN

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: foliveti

Just my two cents. But for all of its faults WitP has been a dream come true for me. I bought the SPI version of War in the Pacific back in 1980. I was fascinated by its detail and all of the logistical and other aspect that it covered. The problem was that between space and time requirements it was completely unplayable. WitP takes a lot of that detail and in some ways adds to it. It also has the added benefit of being playable. There were some interesting features of the old SPI game that I wish were in the version we are playing now, but they are not. It took about 12 years or so to get from the original PACWAR to WitP. What we have now is a tremendous leap. I think we can chew on this version for quite a few years before someone comes out with the next generation of WitP.

AMEN

But please, next time, don't just rehash all the old design oversites and limitations. Approach the next one with an open mind towards new ideas and concepts.

[Mr.Frag]

But please, next time, don't just rehash all the old design oversites and limitations. Approach the next one with an open mind towards new ideas and concepts.

Starting something from scratch at this epic a scale would never get off the ground due to the capital investment required.

Remember that this puppy had 3+ people dedicated to it for years. Without the UV starting point, it would have tacked on either people or time. I suspect 2BY3 really didn't grasp the true scale of this monster until well after the point of no return. Had they known what they were getting into, I suspect WitP would never have been made. For the same investment, they could have put out 2-3 GGWaW games that will certainly dwarf the sales. At the end of the day, you have to come to terms with the fact that 2BY3 is a company with employees who expect a pay cheque for their work.


You really do them an injustice when making comments about an Open Mind. The number of tester/customer requests added to this game exceed the original list of what was part of the design.

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

...............................

Starting something from scratch at this epic a scale would never get off the ground due to the capital investment required.

................................

Then give us the code and let those of us who will do it for free get to it.

(Of course as a group "we" would never agree on how things should be done.[:o])

[Feinder]

You do realize if you let the mongels loose on the code that, you'd soon have 10 versions with everyone's pet fix. You'd have a joy of time trying to manage the implementation and versions. And which one is "official". Then you'd get "fixes" that break other things, and the endless finger-pointing of who did it, or if it was a legacy bug.

Tho well-intentioned as it may be, this forum isn't RedHat.

-F-

[ChezDaJez]

Then give us the code and let those of us who will do it for free get to it.

Yeah, that's what we need... a bunch of guys who may or may not know programming and game design and who may or may not stick around long enough to finish.

Once Matrix washes their hands of the game, then that MIGHT be an option but I seriously doubt that there are many people around who are willing to put in the time and resources that would be required. A complete rewrite of some of the routines is required and who knows how many more bugs that would introduce.

Chez

[Mr.Frag]

Once Matrix washes their hands of the game, then that MIGHT be an option but I seriously doubt that there are many people around who are willing to put in the time and resources that would be required.

I have to agree just based on the number of testers lost over time. Having actual coders working together is even tougher then having testers. I doubt any of you would put up with 1 post from Ron. [:D]

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Having actual coders working together is even tougher then having testers.

Herding cats is easier than getting coders to work together. If the code base is ever opened up it'll probably be when 2by3/Matrix feel that they've exhausted all sales potential. Even then I doubt that it'll be available to all and sundry.

In the meantime, thanks to all testers, both current and past, for all their efforts and let's hope Mike Wood continues to roll-out the fixes (and additions), hopefully even beyond the 1.5 patch.

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

You do realize if you let the mongels loose on the code that, you'd soon have 10 versions with everyone's pet fix. You'd have a joy of time trying to manage the implementation and versions. And which one is "official". Then you'd get "fixes" that break other things, and the endless finger-pointing of who did it, or if it was a legacy bug.

Tho well-intentioned as it may be, this forum isn't RedHat.

-F-

Thats the part in parenthesis where "we" cannot agree on anything.

But if the BMF (Big Mother F.... well you know) mod committee can agree on mods then all it takes is the same commitment on game changes. There are certainly several non-contraversial additions (some of which I have mentioned) which would help in managing the game - more sorts and filters and info screens - that sort of thing .

Plus we want the 2X3 guys to work on new stuff.

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

.................... If the code base is ever opened up it'll probably be when 2by3/Matrix feel that they've exhausted all sales potential.

....................

Matrix already feels like that which is why they kicked us to the bottom of the forums![X(][:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Once Matrix washes their hands of the game, then that MIGHT be an option but I seriously doubt that there are many people around who are willing to put in the time and resources that would be required.

I have to agree just based on the number of testers lost over time. Having actual coders working together is even tougher then having testers. I doubt any of you would put up with 1 post from Ron. [:D]

This game would have done well with a few more "Rons" early in development. [8D] Love ins don't necessarily breed innovation.[:-]