Invasion Russia III

[moses]

No I don't know where those two divisions are but I know where they have to go. Sooner of later everything in the north will have to meet the growing army that I have headed to Irkustuk.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: moses

No I don't know where those two divisions are but I know where they have to go. Sooner of later everything in the north will have to meet the growing army that I have headed to Irkustuk.

Yep...

In a full map PBEM I would probably have sent the Chinese units N of Yenen at start to Yenen and then part of them to N Russia after your attack.

[moses]

At start everything has to go to Yenan as you said because you don't know I'm going to Russia. After 4 or 5 days you realise what my plan is so you send these units to russia. How long does it take for these guys to make it via road all the way to russia?

At best you can send three corps and that is quite a risk becauses Japan still has a significant offensive punch in China. You're only leaving two corps and a division in the Yenan area. I think three Chinese corps probably equates to one or one and a half russian divisions in terms of combat strength.

So the three Chinese corps will arrive too late to change anything but just in time for the general rout and surrender.[:D]

[AmiralLaurent]

Don't think so, in late Dec 1941 (the day of Japanese invasion) I will have 10 Chinese Corps and 1 Division in Yenen. I will send 5 Chinese corps east on the first report of your strength, seeing that several divisions were commited to Manchoukuo.

Don't know if it can change something but the Chinese troops may reach Irkutsk before yours.

[moses]

I am away from the game and so have no access to a map. Is'nt you route to Irkustuk all road/no rail? Take number of hexes times four and thats the minimum time required. It will take much longer since fatigue will pile up.

I will of course take that intersection north of Yenan the first week with one of those independant brigades. They won't hold for long but will slow your movement further.

I'll have to look at this when I get home.

[AmiralLaurent]

I'm at working, checking the forum while database is working, and have no map either.

You're probably right. Chinese troops may only save the remmants of Soviet units retreating towards China... where they will be crushed again some months or weeks later.

[moses]

18 Jan:

A Russian unit has now moved to the north of Harbin. So it looks as if he has given up on the idea of taking Harbin for now and perhaps is headed for the city north of Harbin. This city has a very small amount of resourses so I will hold it if I can but am not too concerned about its temporary loss.

I'm trying to engage the units near Harbin but the 59 mile bug has cropped up again. Who knows when or if my units will move.

On the north rail line the russians have broken contact and my main force is charging north along the rail and is now out of the wooded area north of "B". I would think the Russian forces are in great danger because if I get to the next rail intersection than anything south of that will be cut off from the final defence of Irkustuk.

My forces have arrived in strength at Iman and I still don't see indications of that large of a Russian force there. I will find out next turn.

In the far south I continue the long battle against the isolated forts at three seperate locations. All russian forces in the south are now engaged and its anyones guess how long they will hold out.


19 Jan:

Iman falls. He left only a fort unit there to defend. Now all of the bases in southern russia have been taken and he holds only the two bases which he captured earlier.

I'm now seeing a lot of units around Harbin. (2 stacks of 7 units.)

[AmiralLaurent]

22 Jan 1942, in the evening

Situation last week was desesperate. The Vladivostok Army had been defeated twice while trying to retreat and was with zero supplies and had more to march to Iman than Japanese coming from north.

What saved the situation was that I have sent an Amry HQ in Iman and another in Manchuria, so I had both cities with 20000 supplies and more. After two days marching at 1 mile a day without supply, the Vladivostok Army was resplenished and even reinforced with reinforcements and marched north fast enough to reach Iman and evacuate it towards Manchuria before the Japanese assault.

My whole strategy since the start of the game has been to evacuate S Russia through the center of Manchuria. I was excepting to hoild a little longer in the south and also to meet less Japanese units in the center.

Now most of the Russia Army is around Harbin and the decisive battle will be fought there. I have troops 120 miles NE of Harbin in the mountains to delay Japanese troops coming from this direction. Most troops are 60 miles NE of Harbin and marching to the city. Sadly the first units arrived yesterday and a shcok attack repulsed them today before the mass of the other units arrive.
In the same time, I have part of my units marching crosscountry to the hex NW of Harbin, to cut the road to Tsihalar. These troops repulsed a shock attack yesterday and launched one today, repulsing Japanese troops.

At the same time in the NE, at least 4 Japanese divisions are marching along the railyard towards Chita and ultimately Irkust. Until now they have only met one Russian division.

In the NW, 2 Russian divisions continue to repulse the Mongolian cavalry and retook today the two cities on the Soviet side of the border. They will continue S and try to join the main battle in the center of the map.
Farther to the NW a Cav Div took a Mongolian city, after chasing a Soviet base Force for weeks. The BF was sent towards China.

Soviet troops continue to hold NW of Vladivostok (2 Div and 2 CD) and SW of Iman (1 CD). They are unable to move.

A Soviet unit was sent by the track E of Chiamusu back to Russia and has been ordered to enter Khabarovsk and destroy as much factories as it can. The question is : do Japan let a garrison here or not ?

Soviet planes flying from captured airbases in Manchuria have been very successfull last week. Japan has lost more than 200 planes during the campain (OK, only 15 Zeroes really matter).

.....

The battle will be won or lost around Harbin. Even if the defeat today in the city hex is a bad start.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent


My whole strategy since the start of the game has been to evacuate S Russia through the center of Manchuria. I was excepting to hoild a little longer in the south and also to meet less Japanese units in the center.

Finally realized that this was your plan. But the four divisions that were just retreated has to hurt. Still you may get some forces out as I have been experiencing the 59 mile bug and don't know if I will be able to engage the troops around Harbin or not.

Since I just attacked all my troops have started back from zero. But before the attack I had had several units at 59 miles for several turns. So I'll try again and see if my guys move. Otherwise for all I know the Russians will just march past Harbin and head north.

If I can engage in one more battle I think it will be too late for the Russian as my troops comming from Iman will eventually catch them from behind. Reminds me of the Appomatix campaign.

Very interesting stategy though.

[AmiralLaurent]

To be honest, I will now change some things. I thought Khabarovsk and Iman were both forest terrain, they are respectively clear and mountain. Will definetly retreat from khabarovsk sooner to draw more supplies to Iman and try to hold here while invading Manchuria.

I also discover that even when Russian troops are inactive you can transfer planes and change targets for ground units. That would have helped a lot.... I would have one more month to prepare units to where I wanted them to fight.

[AmiralLaurent]

29 January 1942, 1 a.m, somewhere NE of Harbin

Last week has seen heavy battles around Harbin and the Soviet forces have lost more often than they won. Attempts to advance to Harbin have been repulsed twice with heavy losses. It is also no more possible to jump directly to the road hex N of the city (on the railway to Tsilitsar). The troops that had marched there first were able to repulse a Japanese brigade and have marched north. An armoured brigade had marched west.

In the east, the raid on Khabarovsk met a full Japanese division and was repulsed.
In the north, Japanese troops have reached the crossroads S of Chita and will cut the Soviet forces more south.
In the south, surrounded Soviet troops still held everywhere.
In the northwest, Soviet troops continue to pursue the remmants of the Mongol cavalry divisions but advance slowly.

In the air, Zeroes have appeared in Harbin area and won local superiority. Most Soviet air units are now in the north bombing advancing Japanese troops.

Today will be critical.

NE of Harbin, all forces retreating from Southern Russia have now gathered and drew all remaining supplies from Chiamusu, the last base held by Soviet in the area. They face 3 Div, 1 Bde and 1 Tk Rgt in the same hex and will launch a shock attack against them. If they are successfull, Japanese losses will be heavy and an attack on Harbin will again be possible, as the massive Japanese Army that took Kabharovsk and Iman has not reached Chiamusu yet and will arrive in more than a week. If they failed they won't be able to move anymore and will be destroyed when this same Japanese army arrives.

A Rifle Div reached Tsilitsar and will also shock attack it. The town is held by two Mongol Cav Div that were allready beaten at least once and an ENG unit, so it could be taken. That will allow troops in the area to gather there and give a retreat hex for the main army in the south.

An armored Bde is now 120 miles W of Harbin. An unknown Japanese unit faces it and will again be shock attacked. The city just SW of this hex is an important industrial center and it is possible this unit is an ENG unit sent there to win some time before reinforcements arrive. I don't think Japan still has reserves in this area. NW of this hex is the railway to Tamsang where Soviet troops will arrive in some days and probably defeat again the Mongol cavalrymen that they are repulsing since several weeks.

[kaiser73]

Ground combat at 70,28

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 1870 troops, 0 guns, 131 vehicles

Defending force 25745 troops, 93 guns, 39 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
32 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
120 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Ground combat at 70,28

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 1870 troops, 0 guns, 131 vehicles

Defending force 25745 troops, 93 guns, 39 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
32 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
120 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

you guys can explain me why you attack at these odds? or is there some trick i don't see?

[moses]

The amazing march of the russian army south to Iman and then to Tsilitsar is the most fantastic example of how strange the land combat is. Instead of infantry armies slogging across the frozen landscape it is more like some sort of tactical cavalry battle. I think some of his divisions have advanced over 700 miles in 30 days, most of it against opposition and some of it across country!! For the last two weeks the Russian force has supplied itself from captured basis. Its home bases have long been captured.

A fantastic job by AL and another fine proof that large land combat needs to be slowed down as people have been saying for a very long time.

I expect that he will take Tsilitsar and may be able to escape over the mountains with a small part of his force. Most of his army seems to be finally surrounded around Harbin and is stuck there. Unfortunately his armies there are almost cut off as well as I have a large force heeded for Irkustuk.

The mopping up in the south continues. The road from Vladastock to Imam wil probably be cleared in a couple days. The 2 Divisions in the southern forts will hold on for who knows how long as once a unit is truly cut off from supply it becomes almost invulnerable.

[moses]

Kaiser73: In this case I think that his forces were retreating and so I attacked on the assumption that I might smack the last unit after everything else had left. In this case more of his units remained than I had thought.

After a shock attack an armored unit will sometimes advance immediately into the next hex. Attacking with this unit can somtimes bring very good results and is low risk since the armored units tend to not take many casualties.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: kaiser73

you guys can explain me why you attack at these odds? or is there some trick i don't see?

This whole campain is a movement war. In most of my games I will always only use artillery fire the first day and then attack if odds are good. In this campain I like better attack at once before reinforcements can arrive. And moses did that here too. My 20000 Soviet troops had just been defeated and were retreating.

As for slowing the land campains, just think twice of it. Several divisions that will participate in the 'succeed or die' attack tomorrow NE of Harbin were one month ago on the border in Blagoveshchensk. They went south up to Iman then north up to Harbin via Chiamusu. They experienced only some days of battle.

The units that reach Tsilitsar and the Armored Bde that is now W of Harbin were the troops starting in Iman and they fought at least ten days to arrive there.

As for supplies, I sent HQ in captured Manchouria so drew more than 30000 supplies from Iman. Right now there are 971 supplies remaining in Chiamusu and that is all. But most of my units have now enough supplies to fight efficiently.

Most of my units have now fatigue levels of 60-65.

I fully agree with moses that such moves in Siberian winter are totally unrealistic. Or even in a bright summer.

[AmiralLaurent]

I think Far East Command is defeated.

Both attacks NE of Harbin and in Tsilitsar achieve only 1 to 1 ratio and so failed. The Armored Bde W of Harbin was shock attacked by a Division and retreated in the countryside, as do one Soviet Div and an Army HQ SW of Tsilitsar.

The main Japanese Army reached Chiamusu, that is evacuated. And in the north Japanese troops will reach Chita shortly.

[moses]

It looks like his southern army is finally pinned down. He failed in his second desperate attempt to take Tsilitsar as my rienforcement arrived. There is no hope for him there now. Also I took his last captured city in the south so he has no supply at all now.

His troops NE of Harbin marched 840 miles in a month before being trapped!!! About 28 miles per day, much of it through enemy territory.

Nothing left to do in the south but mop-up. I will begin shifting most of the southern area and China divisions back to their commands.

In the north my main body continues its march up the rail line. I don't think he has enough force left to stop even the current force I have there. Plus I have more divisions heading that way so that even should he be able to establish a stable defensive position It will just be a temporary delay. It looks as though he intends to defend at Chita which my troops will arrive at in the next day or two. This is a wooded hex so it is the logical place to attempt a final stand.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: moses

In the north my main body continues its march up the rail line. I don't think he has enough force left to stop even the current force I have there. Plus I have more divisions heading that way so that even should he be able to establish a stable defensive position It will just be a temporary delay. It looks as though he intends to defend at Chita which my troops will arrive at in the next day or two. This is a wooded hex so it is the logical place to attempt a final stand.

Chita is only looking wooded. It is a clear terrain hex as 90% of the Soviet bases, even in clearly wooded hexes on the map..... Anyway this is the place where I have engineers building forts since the start of the campain so battle should be fought there.

[moses]

Really, its clear terrain?? I hadn't checked this that closely as the map art shows it in the middle of dense woods.

Well that will make things much easier. My force there at the moment is not really all that strong and I thought that you might be able to hold there for a week or two until more troops came up. Now I suspect I might take it fairly quickly. I don't think your troops there can be in to good of shape as I think I've retreated those units at least once or twice already.

[AmiralLaurent]

Yes those troops were allready beaten several times but supplies from Irtusk (sp) helped to rebuild and to reorganize them. They now are back to more than 95% of their TOE.