Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
A quick check shows a large number of Japanese land units "formed" in conquered territories - Malaya, the Philippines, NEI. Should these have their arrival "cleared" to they arrive at their HQ designated locations??
What say you all?

I agree with all of what Bradley7735 says.

[bstarr]

Land units, yes; I also agree. However, my post was about jap ships.

[bstarr]

Rephrase:

I think I agree with the LCU unless specific data can be found that they were formed at a certain location.

I still think ships should come in at their historic ports. Their redeployment is part of the game. It's oddly enough the same argument at a different angle. LCUs shouldn't be deployed to some random port because we want the same freedom to deploy them that the historic leaders had. The ships should appear at their historic ports because I want the same freedom of deployment that their historic leaders had . . . I may not need them at Tokyo.

[Bradley7735]

I agree with all of what Bradley7735 says.

Wow. That doesn't happen very often. Especially from someone who has a good brain on their shoulders.

However, I agree with bstarr as well. I think that if the ship/LCU/airgroup became operational (combat ready) at a specific base on the map, then that is where it should come in as a reinforcement. However, if the ship/LCU/airgroup became operational somewhere off the map, then it's starting location should be the countries main port (probably Panama Canal for US ships, SF for US LCU's and airgroups, etc etc).

However #2, since I don't do any of the hard research stuff you guys are using to create the mod, I'd be perfectly happy to see all LCU/Ship/Airgroup reinforcements arrive in the countries main base. It is a little less historic, but it does help those of us who can't read fast enough to know where reinforcements are showing up. I'd only have to check a few bases to know if I had new ships/LCU's or airgroups on map.

Anyway, I'll be happy with whatever you guys decide to do. If I don't like it, I can edit.

[Don Bowen]

OK - I am getting a little confused.

Allied reinforcements have already been moved to historic arrival points (with a few exceptions):

US ships arrive on the West Coast or at Panama
British Ships arrive at Aden/Middle East
Australian/New Zealand/Canada/India Ships arrive primarily in their own countries unless known to arrive somewhere else (Australian "N" class at Middle East, for example).
Commonwealth and Dutch ships arrive at either British (Aden/Middle East) or US (West Coast/Panama) arrival points
Exceptions for ships: those units known to be at sea on or about 12/7/41 will arrive at their destination ports at the approximate arrival times.

US Airgroups arrive at the United States Base (330) except those transferred via Atlantic/Med or formed in India/China, which arrive at Middle East
British Airgroups arrive at Middle East
Australian/New Zealand/Indian/Canadian/Chinese/Soviet airgroups arrive in their own countries except those known to arrive at some other location (some transfers from the Atlantic)
Commonwealth Air Units arrive at Middle East
Dutch Airgroups arrive in Australia (two squadrons formed with the RAAF)
Exceptions for AirGroups: two US squadrons arrive at Brisbane in late December, 1941 to simulate transport via the Pensacola Convoy.

US Land units arrive on the West Coast or Panama
British Land Units arrive at Middle East
All others arrive in their home countries
Exception for Land Units: British Chindit units are formed in India.

I have done no such work with Japanese forces - they're just targets to me and I have neither interest nor research material for them. From the posts above it is not clear what you-all think should be done:
Japanese Ships listed in BStar's original post can be moved to those locations - the rest will continue to default.
A few Japanese Airgroups arrive in China - these can easily be moved back to Japan.
Japanese Land Units arrive all over the bloody place - many in locations that are not under Japanese control at the start of the scenario: Malaya, Philippines, NEI, others. I can either clear their arrival points and allow them to default to HQ location or I can leave them like they are and go get a beer. I would like advice from a Japanese Fanboy on this.

Don

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


OK - I am getting a little confused.

Allied reinforcements have already been moved to historic arrival points (with a few exceptions):

US ships arrive on the West Coast or at Panama
British Ships arrive at Aden/Middle East
Australian/New Zealand/Canada/India Ships arrive primarily in their own countries unless known to arrive somewhere else (Australian "N" class at Middle East, for example).
Commonwealth and Dutch ships arrive at either British (Aden/Middle East) or US (West Coast/Panama) arrival points
Exceptions for ships: those units known to be at sea on or about 12/7/41 will arrive at their destination ports at the approximate arrival times.

US Airgroups arrive at the United States Base (330) except those transferred via Atlantic/Med or formed in India/China, which arrive at Middle East
British Airgroups arrive at Middle East
Australian/New Zealand/Indian/Canadian/Chinese/Soviet airgroups arrive in their own countries except those known to arrive at some other location (some transfers from the Atlantic)
Commonwealth Air Units arrive at Middle East
Dutch Airgroups arrive in Australia (two squadrons formed with the RAAF)
Exceptions for AirGroups: two US squadrons arrive at Brisbane in late December, 1941 to simulate transport via the Pensacola Convoy.

US Land units arrive on the West Coast or Panama
British Land Units arrive at Middle East
All others arrive in their home countries
Exception for Land Units: British Chindit units are formed in India.

I have done no such work with Japanese forces - they're just targets to me and I have neither interest nor research material for them. From the posts above it is not clear what you-all think should be done:
Japanese Ships listed in BStar's original post can be moved to those locations - the rest will continue to default.
A few Japanese Airgroups arrive in China - these can easily be moved back to Japan.
Japanese Land Units arrive all over the bloody place - many in locations that are not under Japanese control at the start of the scenario: Malaya, Philippines, NEI, others. I can either clear their arrival points and allow them to default to HQ location or I can leave them like they are and go get a beer. I would like advice from a Japanese Fanboy on this.

Don

have u guys talked to pry about this? i wonder if maybe they did this for a reason? maybe for the AI or something...

just a thought...

but yes it would seem to make sense that the units would form in their home countries or hq locaton...

[Bradley7735]

Hi Don,

Your list of arrivals for the allies looks exactly like what I wanted to see. You have all arrivals coming into one main base for that country, with some known exceptions. That's exactly what I was trying to say in my emails.

However, I'm not a Japanense fanboy, so I don't know what to say on the Japanese LCU thing. If it breaks the AI, then you should leave it alone. In fact, I say you should probably just be safe and not worry about the Japanese side and go get that beer.

bc

[Ron Saueracker]

As I've mentioned a number of times last few years, I'd like to see the majority of units be tied to restricted commands at start of game and when arriving as reinforcements. US to West Coast, SE Asia as ABDA initially (command structure was pretty screwy until ABDA collapsed and since SE Asia is unrestricted and probably should be restricted, ABDA is best option), I'm not sure which japanese HQs are restricted but I think the more we restrict them, the less BS we will see intially. Same goes for mass exodus of DEI and Malaya forces.

[Andrew Brown]

I still think ships should come in at their historic ports. Their redeployment is part of the game.

bstarr - I also see your point and, if someone is willing and able to move the starting points of some of the IJN ships then that is fine by me. I can't do it though as I am too busy for now (and IF I get some spare time later I might even tackle some of the most dreaded of tasks - "documentation").

As for the Japanese LCU appearing in "conquered" areas - I also don't know why that was done. Its a question for Pry or others.

As Don says I am sure that all of the Allied forces are correct.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
As for the Japanese LCU appearing in "conquered" areas - I also don't know why that was done. Its a question for Pry or others.

I've updated the Japanese ship arrivals as suggested and verified all the allied units. Remaining questions are Japanese Airgroups and Land Units.

I ASSUME the units in question were actually formed in the locations given. Since men and equipment had to be shipped "there" in order to form the unit, I feel it is more appropriate to have the units appear in the Home Islands. That is what has been done for allied units that formed in "the field" - they have been moved back to their respective homelands.

Probably the best thing is to clear the arrival points for all units that appear as reinforcements outside of Japan and let them arrive at the normal arrival point for their HQ. However, as suggested, there may be some valid reason for forming the units "in the field". I am waiting for more input before tackling this item.

Don

[Herrbear]

I notice in the mod that class 413 Old "S" class is listed as a type 18-DMS. Shouldn't these be a type 17-DM?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

I notice in the mod that class 413 Old "S" class is listed as a type 18-DMS. Shouldn't these be a type 17-DM?

You are correct - Fixed!

[Herrbear]

It seems that the Japanese sub classes all have their torpedoes facing Forward and none Rearward. Does it matter for game purposes?

[bstarr]

Japanese Land Units arrive all over the bloody place - many in locations that are not under Japanese control at the start of the scenario: Malaya, Philippines, NEI, others. I can either clear their arrival points and allow them to default to HQ location or I can leave them like they are and go get a beer. I would like advice from a Japanese Fanboy on this.

Might want to consider leaving these forming where they already do. It may or may not be historic, but it would beat the hell out of having half of them sunk in the late-war allied sub blitz. You could end up with half of your jap army lost to Davy Jones' locker and the other half stranded at Tokyo, while you what helpless as the allies roll right through the dutch east indies.
bs

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

It seems that the Japanese sub classes all have their torpedoes facing Forward and none Rearward. Does it matter for game purposes?

The Japanese generally did not use stern torpedo tubes for their submarines. So all tubes facing foward is correct.

[Herrbear]

The Tutuila ship # 4688 is showing based in Hong Kong. Did the US have ships in HK?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

The Tutuila ship # 4688 is showing based in Hong Kong. Did the US have ships in HK?

She was actually upriver on the Yangtse - Hong Kong is a close as we can come.

[CobraAus]

Don I am finding several destroyers fitted with sea plane rails mainly over rear turrets when looking for art, I have not looked yet but have any of the destroyers been given this capabilty to use scout planes
if historic would be very usefull

Cobra Aus

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

Don I am finding several destroyers fitted with sea plane rails mainly over rear turrets when looking for art, I have not looked yet but have any of the destroyers been given this capabilty to use scout planes
if historic would be very usefull

Cobra Aus

As far as I know this capability was never used in action. The U.S. abandoned it's test program and converted/re-ordered all units as regular Destroyers. I've seen conflicting reports as to the Dutch destroyers in the NEI - they have have retained the capability but I can find no record of it ever being used. Anyway- I don't think WITP can handle it.

Don

[Ron Saueracker]

Nice site.

http://www.friesian.com/destroy.htm