Paul vs Joel PBEM - Allied Player comments only

[Paul Vebber]

In East PRussia he has 1 FB, 2 Fighters, 4 panzers, 8 inf and 2 arty HE only has 3 transports in the baltic and they are only 3 amph so he could at most get 1 unit, his airborne and 4 tanks and 1 FB for 7 shots. I've got 3 inf, 6 militia, 2 fighters a AAA and an arty. He would have to make 100% of his hits to take it. and I would have to make 0.

Maybe I'm still a bit naive, but I figure if you can save any of those forward factories, you are doing good.

I don;t think he has enough to invade successfully yet 6 of the infantry in Rumania are militia, he only has 5 regular inf and 3 arty to take Odessa and Kiev,his 13 inf and 2 arty should be able to take E Poland and the Baltics. We shall see. IT appears he will need good rolling to take Kharkov. Even with the surprise bonus, he is spread very thin. ANY bad rolls could mean failure to take Kiev, or Kharkov.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Maybe I'm still a bit naive, but I figure if you can save any of those forward factories, you are doing good.

Don't disagree. As for the German side, the German player must take either Kharkov or Leningrad. I believe that very strongly.

[Paul Vebber]

Well, Barbarossa is underway, and the Big SQUEEZE is on! Japan has decided to come after The SU in a big way. I failed to account for arty getting 2 shots and didn't realize how great the surprise effect has, though we are checking out a possible bug in teh surprise rule in certain circumstances. I did up a table of probabilities of getting various rolls on various dice, so you can see the effect of a lossof evasion, or DRM. I'll post that when the game comes out.

In any case I was not able to come close to saving Kharkov. I am not sure its possible given 1 inf and 10 militia is the best you can get there. 4 tanks and 6 air have a very high success chance. Especially if, as Joel ahs done" you research "Panthers" (9/9) PanzerKorps in 41! I was able to hold Leningrad, and because he has let me off the hook pretty much in teh atlantic, I had a healthy 30 supply sent via Lend Lease.

The WA play has been mostly a case of trying to keep him off balance, and it worked pretty well, getting him to give up North Africa after I used my "flying monkey militia" (militia from off in Borneo and Australia moving to Cairo and hurling themselves in Amphibius assault agains tthe Germans attempting to move into teh ME. I got lucky and had a mutual ahnilalation, and then got a second AA agaisnt the empty territoy, cutting him off in Iraq. I invaded tunisia early and thretend an advance from teh west, and took Sardinia (with supply this time) but only threatened to send the RN in to bring the IT navy to battle. I did hit thier transpors were vulnerable.

I used my transport pipeline to shift forces from Tunisia, to Iraq and Persia, hoping to be able to contest the Caucases 6 resources with WA troops. JOel seems to have gotten tired of shifting back and forth and evacuated NA. I hope to eventually use Sardinia as permanent CV to wear down Italy and go for Rome as soon as I can (late42/early 43). The one good tehing about Japan attacking the SU is teh WA jumped to a factory multiplier of 3 two turns early (normally in Sp42 - or when Japan attacks them or the SU. IT just so happens I built two extra factories in the US so this has helped accelrate my reasearch program and get a forceof 10 arty and 10 Flak that I intend to send to the ME to keep a sizable GE force in the Caucases, or risk a second front in Russia. My arty will soon be 9 on attack, they will wreack havoc with two such shots on even the 9 evasion Panzer Korps. They will shred even 8 evasion infantry.

THere is only so much you can do so I basically let Joel cut my Sea Line of Communicaiton to the east coast of the US, having set up an alternate all the way round africa to teh West coast. I used my CV fleet outside Gibralter to "anchor" the SLOC and kept pushing transports up to england as the Uboats killed them - basically expending 2 transports a turn - he would kill them, I would push them back through.

I made a MAJOR mistake prying an air atack on teh German hvy fleet and 5 Uboats in Western France - I was shredded and the one CV air that got through did nothing. So insead of 3 CV airwings with 2 ASW attack, I only had 1. THis allowed him a chance to break out, and he did so, one sub being damamged IIRC. SO 4 broke back out - forceing me to send my 5 light fleets and CV airwing to get tehm before they dispersed. I manged to damamge 2 but 3 of my ASDIC equipped detroyer flotillas wer damaged. I had him bottled up, and let him out [:@]

Here is the opening Barbarossa move and my response. In hinsight, I sent teh militia up to force him to commit at least two units to take each space. I also moved teh factory out of Rostov and sent it to Kazahkstan. A bad move given teh Japanese advance, oh well...

[Paul Vebber]

THe Fall turn saw the germans swign their panzer south in a big way - 4 all the way in Grozny and 2 in Rostov. 1 noticable hung out with a single inf in smolensk.

Several other areas were weakly held, so I gobbled them back up to force him to take them back. Hopefully he will be conservative next turn when the Russian winter rolls can be brutal. A few units left like the Panzer and inf in Smolensk can be very vulnerable. I forget if I used air or militia - militia I think to probe and engage - then I surged my remaining air and 3 arty forward. Ary can't hold territory, so surviors retreat to Moscow, If I take losses, they will go to Moscow's build queue to return for a production poitn at the end of the turn. I should have loast one, to teh tank, but he got two. I thing I detroyed both units. I may have only damaged it - I was so excited to see it on the damage screen, I didn't register which category it was in [8|]

Here is teh situation I faaced, I forgot to take screenie when I was done, but I took back empty Kalinin and Kursk, and blew him out of smolensk.

[Paul Vebber]

The thing that has generated some buzz is the progress the Japanese are making across Siberia. There is no way Vladivostok can be held, since you can only build units, not move them around in the politically forzen areas. A determined Japanese player can ensure (barring cataclsymic die rolls) can take it and move out of Manchuria into Irkutsk. NOw part of what makes this possible is teh fact that right now, ground units ignore 'double lines' and can always move 1. There are also no militia produced in Siberia, as is produced in west. A couple potential solutions is to enforce the double lines on ground units, either by making it take 2 turns to cross one, or (my preffered method) make it a 50/50 die roll to cross - with failure costing the supply, and stacks moving together rolling once. THis would also put a potential damper on Joels attempt to send a unit rampaging across Africa destroying the resources I managed to stop him, but he did a fair amount of damage

The supply to make this trek is sprely needed when the rush to the Southern Resource area comes around. IF it can take the factories in the Urals, its basically lights out for the Russians. The Japanese suffer no ill effects of winter, so they show up and can force the Russians to attack them, vice the Germans.

Things are looking grim right now for Russia, but I got 30 supply to them via lend lease, and there is little chance of it being cut with only 2 u-boats roaming about. The Japanese got VERY lucky with the blocking force of tanks I tried to harrass them with. I hoped to atleast whittel down their force.

Anyway here is teh overall strategic map:

[Paul Vebber]

Well, the great Winter counterattack was not very great, and didn't do much. Joel withdrew back where I couldn't get to him, except in the south, where I need some good luck to blunt his spearhead, I killed a lot of arty, but lost a lot of militia.

The Japanese continue their swarm across Siberia and have sveral targets next turn. I had to reduce it down to 2 so I moved my factory out of Western Kazahkstan. I also moved the stalingrad factory out. I'm resource constrained now, so my hope is to at least make him take them with Japanese If he wantes teh Germans to get them, he'll have to wait to attack them.

It is going to be tough sledding though, as Russia has to hold out for another year, before the US will enter in winter 43. Provided Japan doesn't enter inland China, that is the soonest the US can enter.

I thought the US would enter the war if Japan attacked SU, but that is ONLY true if Japan has alos gone inland into China. Joel has carefully observed teh rules on US entry to get teh biggest bang for his buck.

Had my tank in Vladivostok mnot been killed by a bug that didn't let it retreat, and I didn't screw up my strategic movement, i could have gotten 2 arty along with what would have been 3 tanks in Central Siberia - a combo that would have cost the Japanese more, if not blunted the attack. 3 armor and 2 arty should get 5-6 hits - that would have crippled his attack force.

Well I had a couple Naval successes - as I 'used or losed' the Leneingrad heavy fleet and fighters and it traded with the German heavy fleet. In teh Central med I went whole hog and took the Central Med and crippled the Italian fleet.

My strategy at this point will require a change of plans. I have a LOT of CVs in my queue and whit Russia down and Japan heavily overextended, I am shifting my strategy from going after Germay and holding on the Japanese front, to an all out naval offensive agaisnt Japan - and a "hit and run" strategy out of the Med to try to attrite German forces and raid his coastal resource areas. With Russia down, I want to creat as broad a front as possible adn use my large transport fleet to keep a wide line runnign from teh Caspian to southern France and keep shifting attacks to hit him where he is weak. I will use the US hiatus to research my CV air, Fighter range and air to air, arty and armor attack. IT will take a LOT of milita (and population) to keep Russia secure.

And build a lot of supples.

[IDrinkBeer]

Paul,

What are the Chinese doing? If Japan is going hard into Russia the Chinese should have some opportunity to attack.

[Paul Vebber]

Joel has been very careful about not attacking inland with anything but air units, he made a bunch of attacks with his air power and whittled them down, They have only had two build phases and I built 3 flak units and 10 SPs - having all the flak has stopped the air attacks, but China is impotent until their industry gets out of the "once every 3 turns" production cycle. My 3rd build cycle will be this next turn, but if I basically have ony "one shot" and with militia against upgraded Jap infantry (7 attack I thik he has - 6 evasion) I have no real chance.

Heis being very careful to keep China and the US out of things while Germany and Japan dissect Russia.

There is no way the Russians can hold Vladivostock against a determined Japanese assault. Like i said, had I not bungled my strategic movement, I could have gotten 2 arty with my the tanks and I think that would have at least cost the Japanese some lossses, but there are no partisans in siberia, no militia and basically the back door is wide open. The japanese don;t even have to garrison it against partisans attacking the trans-siberia rail, or any of the resources there. It did mean the US went to full production a turn early, but that is a small consolation.

I've tried a few games "playing myself" and if the Russian anticipates this occurs - he can get 2 inf, 2 militia, and 2 arty to central siberia to try to make the advance costly or two tanks and two arty. - but you don't get the milita until the winter turn. Japan attacks Vlad and Manchuria in Su 41, Russia responds to Central Siberia. It takes about 10 inf to guarentee success in the attack on central Siberia, less if air takes out the arty first. In Fa41 the militia don't appear untl the build phase, so you don't get them to move east. If the Germans drive south for the Caucases as Joel has done, you can't rail troops to defend against Japan AND evacuate a factory to the north. SO you either leave yourself vulnerable to the Germans (those 2inf or 2 arm and two arty are SORELY missed). You also don't have the militia to defend the hinter lands which a couple Japanese militia can take the resources from with ease - you just can't get there without rail.

So winter sees the Jpanese (who are not affected by the Russian winter like the Germans) take Western Siberia in Wi42 and are in positon to strike any of three territories from there in Sp42. You can't defend them all so he can take the Urals in Sp and Su 42 (unless you get lucky) and with the resource pinch you are under (10 or so) you can't produce units, even if LL is sending you supplies.

Success for the Japanse means 13 resources and 3 (possibly more if the SU relocates factories to the Urals) the same resource value as the SRA with 3 or 4 cpatured factories to boot - with NO garisson requirement. By not attacking inland into China, except with air to keep them 'under control' early, there nothing China can do, so long as the Japanes don't invade inland - they can't replace their losses.

SO its looking like Joel is pursueing this strategy - I mistakenly thought the US came in once Japan attacked the SU, but it seems clear that the Axis is looking to keep the US out of the war as long as possible and try to knock Russia out and have redeployed by the time the US can come in. The RN owns the waves, so unless he is building a paratroop army, he will not be able to get to England (I don't think...) but he won't need to - once he controls Russia he just has to hold out until Germany goes to 4X production in 44 and he should have 70 PP to win auotmatically. With the US not entering the game until 43, that only gives the WA 4 turens to take enough resources to avoid the auto victory. It will take two turns just to get forces into theater - and he can reeposnd to any invaison in overwhleming numbers.

It will be a near run thing - especially as I own the med and have a LOT of transport I can treaten a lot of places and hopefuly gain a british foothold before the US comes in. But if he can hold the Eurasian land mass - or covert a significant part of the SRA with Japan before teh US can get there - he has an automatic victory.

With the US frozen out until the start of 43 - and Germany production multiple going to 4 in Wi 44 - I don't think the US has time to even get its forces to the fight.

A solution may be at hand, as the fundamental problem is the ease with which Japanese forces can cross Siberia, and the "Rules lawyering" that keeps the US out unitl basicall its two late.

Making crossing 2 line boudaries cost 2 SP is an option being considered that will raise the cost of the excursion from 30-40 to 60-80 SP - a supply price that will be VERY difficult for the Japanese to pay (basically motorizing its infnatry to make the crossing) and have any Army or Navy to oppose the US.

The other thing is to treat Japanese entry into Central Russia the same as entry into an inland Chinese province, activating both full Chinese production, and US entry. So Japan will not be able to ignore it reare area and push everything it has East without risk. It also lets the US have most of 42 to deploy and work the SRA.

As it stands I don't see that there is any way the Russians can hold out agaisnt both Germany and Japan - I will lose Stalingrad and leningrad likely this turn, and possibly one of the URals provicnes to Japan - At MOST Russia can hold out 3 more turns, and Germany will be freeing reseources to send west each turn as the noose conscricts. The US will enter in Wi43, jsut as Russia is converted to axis use, and the Pacific fleet will rush to the SRA, taking two turns to get there, having only Su and Fa to conduct ops. PRoduction of a major european invasion army will take two turns, and armor 3, so it seems that the supply stockpiles and research will be moot, as the units that were going to campaign in 44, have a good chance of never getting in the fight.

The little bugs that have been identified in these "gold pbems" are being addressed!

[SeaMonkey]

Paul, what you have just described is a "cookie cutter" strategy for the Axis that can ruin replayability between humans or human Axis against the AI. I sincerely hope that something is done to erradicate this situation or perhaps you are wrong. A similar thing occurred in SC and was only able to remedy the situation with modifications to the Allied side, such as bids or custom campaigns made by the users, but since WaW does not have an editor it looks as if the settings for game initiation will have to be tweaked.

[Becket]

SeaMonkey, don't worry. We have not had issues with Germany always winning while testing the game. Also, please note that Paul's defense of the SU was not ideal, as Joel noted.

[SeaMonkey]

Thanks Becket for the fast reply. Really it is a non issue with me as I am committed to the purchase, just would like to see a generally decent balance in the default scenarios. Not having an editor is somewhat disturbing as I believe certain "cookie cutter" strategies will eventually evolve, hoping not though. Still it seems that the game set up parameters will allow for handicapping, like supply and transport capacity, which is in itself a kind of editor, so I'm not really worried. Besides SC2 is coming out soon, not to mention CotA, Combined Arms, and no telling what else, so my game playing endeavors are sure to be rewarded, one way or the other.

[Paul Vebber]

Well, like I said, I misunderstood some of the entrence criteria and didn't realize the Japanese could invade Russia nad still keep the US and China out of the war.

I spent a bit heavy on research as the Russians, and I took my sweet time as the WA getting LL to them, but I think a more concerted German Uboat campaign can make it costly to keep the LL route open to the North.

A different mix of units and research might be able to free up enough force to meet and block the Japanese in Siberia.

I tried a couple and failed, but that is hardly grounds to panic. One of the "fixes" - the criterea for the US to go active can be edited prety easily. Te "idea to "pay 2 SPs to cross a double line" could be added as an optional rule?

NOte that my "Russia can't hold out" and anlaysis of "gloom and doom" applies to THIS CASE IN PARTICULAR (where I messed up several things that may have made a crucial difference - and even with that, I'm not sure losing Russia is SURE to be an Axis automatic victroy - but that it would be a "near run thing".

Don't be too quick to take this particular experience and gerneralize it to a "Cookie cutter strategy" - I simply did not prepare for tis eventuality and may pay the price.

That doesn't mean if i played again, the chips would fall the same way!

That is part of the beauty of the game - with three main variables to juggle - research, supply and building units - a small variation can lead to a big effect - 2 extra german Panzers could counter me switing some supply builds, or a few more subs and aggressive KM play could cut off the LL convoys. One key battle can open and shut doors that force major changes in strategy. Say had my two tanks survived and were joined by a few arty, i may have been able to reduce teh Jpanaese attack stack to a mere pin p rick.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how long it takes Germany and Japan to polish off Russia, and at what cost. And if the US can rush in and avert the Axis AV.

[Paul Vebber]

The SU is trying to "die well" - damaged a PanzerKorps, nad whittled down a stack of Japanese. but paid dearly in supply. Moved a factory back, likely will lose moscow this turn - but hoping it will take two more turns for the Germans to finsih Russia off.

I drove into the Adriatic with 3-1 ods to try to finish off the Italian fleet, but my damn Hvy fleets couldn't find their quarry and we traded light fleets... a bad result as he has 2 subs to harrass me. Need to restock the CV air wings...fast! I retreated my south atlantic SLOC around the horn of Africa hoping he will go south to get max kills from his 4 uboats.

China is hangin out waiting for the factory workers to get off their buts and work more than 4 months out of the year [8|]

ITs going to be a LOOOOONG 3 turns until the US can come in...but when they do [8D]

[Paul Vebber]

Made another lunge at a Panzer Korps, but it just dodged out of the way.

I'll let you go to Joels side to get screenies - TOO DEPRESSING [:o] Joel has played almost flawlessly [&o] WHile I again make a crucial mistake - for sme reason I was thinking Victoria was in CANADA (there is one , but on the PACIFIC coast...quaint little town with great European charm, but in teh game Victoria is in AUSTRALIA. (Darn I could not distract you with a tavelogue moment...)

In any case I have nice sh

Any transports in VICTORIA but they do me no good getting resources to ENGLAND... I can be such a noob [:@]

I repair and work to consolodate resources for the factory multiplier to go up in 43, but I have a VERY large stockpile. Building up supplies and researching in hopes of keeping Joel from reacing the 70 number - avoiding a DV seems to be my number one goal!

I'm redeploying my transports and will be sending as much as can to Austrailia to try to strike for the casucauses to try to get as many resources as quickly as possible. I started building my armored force and hope to be ready to strike in Sp 43. I will make a fient to england to try to draw strength west, my hope is he will finish off RUsia nd think I;m going to strike in the Med or West and will not have repaired the Russian rail sysem enough to redeploy large forces back to Russia. Taking out Turkey quickly to get its rail network will be a requirement - I'm not sure how hard that will be...

I also concentrating transports to move on the Southern Resource area and contest Japans getting resources. if I can keep him from getting ana aouto victory in 44 - I may still have a chance to hold him to a marginal victory. The industrial might of the US is Impressive and once the German Empire starts to fall the contration can happen fast. If he can get to 70 though, it doesn' matter!

The next two turns will see teh end of Russia and and his hoped for redeplyment

[Paul Vebber]

Well, it looks like my dreasm of a bolt from the blue are about faded [:(] JOel has been busy repairing and will make it to 70 resources before the US can bring her might to bear...

Well now you have an idea what a decisive Axis victory looks like [8|]

My SOviets didn;t go down easy, causing a fair number of casulties to teh Germans. My ASW attacks all whiffed this trun, so anything the US will do wil have to be "the long way round" - just not enough time left as The Japnaese will doubtless disrupt my convoy system in the Psacific this next turn, making it unlikely I will ne able to get nearly enough forces into the game.


Well, we are about to start another game ow th me as the Axis and Becket and IDrinkBeer as the Russians and WA.

Hopefully I learned enough from Joel not to embarrass myself

[Paul Vebber]

My supply network in the pacific had some holes in it that cost me greatly, but at this point it a matter of trying to get materiel to someplace to fight. I built a OTN of supplies and have a lot of force entering in teh next three turns, but Its doubtful it will get to the fight. I reinforced Southern Persia, but the supply line is just two long through too narrow a pipe to support the major offensive i hoped for.

This turn should see teh Axis get to 60 some resorces and then win in Summer.

[Paul Vebber]

Or win now...[:o]

I just received a communique from the Whitehouse, that we have come to terms with Herr Hitler and The Emporer and have established a cease fire line!

Hopefully you all learned al ot of "what not do's" looking over my soldier.

Overall the key blunders I made were:

in general-

SUPPLY SUPPLY SUPPLY - you are unlikley to lose the game because of having to wait a turn or two to get that next higher combat value...but you WILL lose the game if you don't have sufficient supplies. Research can be a siren - don't listne to it. Set out your research goals for the year and stick too them. Double check areas for supply at teh end of your turn NEVER leave aan area with a major troop conacnetration without suffieicnet supplies on hand for one turn of attacking. When in doubt, build supply and transports. You are very unlikely to lose having too much of either (within reason) but can suffer my fate when you don't.

Plan, but don't become a slave to the plan. Like Ike said - it is PLANNING - thinking about what the enemy might do and how you will respond that is importatnt - I lost sight of the situation at hand in tring to execute plans - despite what the PLANNING should have opened my eyes to!

As Russia - watch your back! READ THE ENTRY TRIGGERS. I was too liberal with research and not reliant enough on WA supply help resulting in a cool, but insufficient force to meet the Germans.

As the WA researching ASW is too importatnt to risk. Even if the German pays lib service to a sub campaign then that just makes your job easier. That job is GETTING SUPPLIES TO RUSSIA. You can mess around with keeping the German off balance in the MED, but it is unlikely to deter a well thought out German strategy. You have to try to cost him production where you can, but the overridng objectives MUST be to get at least 30 supplies per turn to SU and to keep the SLOC from England open.

You can probably entertain one "adventure" as England - but make sure you can leverage it in some way. My attacks into Egypt worked well, but i could not exploit it to mount a threat to Italy. I you are going to make a move on the Med, the objective has to be finding a way to threaten Italy. Like France - if you can manuever a wayinto either Italy area, the Axis fleeet in the Med will vanish. Just getting the germans to leave accomplishes nothing if you can't build it into a credible threat to Italy. Other possible "adventures" depending on the situation is action against Norway and Finland; moves on the Azores, Portugal and Spain to threaten France and Vichy; or Turkey, opening a rail path to Russia. A good German can deter most, but not all of these things if he is going to move quickly into Russia.

I had a great time, and many thanks to Joel for the game and great "learning experience". [&o]