Um, no... first turn move bonus is there to allow IJN player some (note: *some*) freedom in planning his crucial opening offensives of the Pacific war. Without that freedom simulated in some manner, IJN would be doomed from the start.
As for Kansas, I see you Allied-obsessives already added Salt Lake City and Manitoba Lake and whatnot to the map, so Kansas seems like a natural next step, good you mentioned it [;)] Do not forget to add some Mississippi riverboats and Great Lakes paddle-powered training CVs while you're at it. [;)]
(Note I said Allied-obsessives, not necesarilly Allied fanboys - distinction is barely visible but it's there [8D])
O.
The initial objectives assigned to Japanese Task Forces reflect their historical missions. It is these task forces that receive the 1st turn bonus - reflected as instaneous movement to their objectives.
There is, to the best of my knowledge, no ability to vary the objectives set for these taskforces at game-load time. And there is absolutely no intention to alter the initial Japanese objectives to anything other than historical.
As for Kansas, I don't think we can add it to the map but I can put Dorothy and Toto into the leader list if that would make you happy.
Not much hope for Mississippi Sternwheelers though, I can't find any specs on their durability or endurance. I do have some specs for Japanese inland-sea train ferries - should I add them??
Shows how often I've played as Japan. I thought that all TFs could benefit from first turn move bonus and that's why people were zipping all over the place on the first turn, when really, only KB and the Malaya bound TFs were actually at sea ready to pounce.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
All Japanese task forces get the move bonus. You can make any task force you want, and it gets to move about 4 days at full speed worth of movement, and they don't expend any fuel. I could be wrong, but I think that's what the manual says. (not 100% sure about the full speed thing, but I'm pretty sure about the 4 days and no fuel)
Then it's not an historical opening turn! Totally negates need for first turn move bonus (put in to get KB to PH but Japanese players use it for gamey simultaneous landing all over Kansas).
Ron,
The Japanese were somewhat expected to launch a "surprise" attack somewhere. The braintrust in Washington thought it to be PI. The IJN thought otherwise in RL. Accordingly,
a first turn surprise advantage is in order .....
Sure, but really, it should have applied to KB and some Malaya bound (off Japanese held Indochina) TFs only. That's (the universal fantasy move) why we have so many bizarre opening turns with Japan flying all over the place and ignoring realities of enemy recon, possible reaction triggers etc. House rules suffice but to answer Olegs quip, we are a little detail freakish but hey, that's what it is all about and PH was important enough to be selected by Japan. Getting the PH results closer to historical parameters might keep/have kept players from thinking attacking PH is not worth it and go after Manila instead.(with all those subs, equally not universally targetable by torpedoes but don't tell the Jap fanboys that either)
I wish the hell torpedo nets were modelled and could be built up in bases like fortification levels...suggested but not implemented.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
House rules suffice but to answer Olegs quip, we are a little detail freakish but hey, that's what it is all about and PH was important enough to be selected by Japan.
Detail freakiness is OK, in fact we could say it's what this game is all about. But as I said I'm afraid you CHS guys - with all the best intentions you have - are Allied detail freaks, not nearly enough Japanese detail freaks, in fact you Ron just admitted couple posts above you never even tried to play all-important first turn from the IJN side.
How many IJN experts - not to mention stuff like "China air war experts" or "Chinese civil war experts" or "Mongolian collaboarationist unit experts" or "Javanese resource WW2 production experts" - do you have in your team?
Don't get me wrong, I wish CHS all the best, but as far as I can tell end result will be "Allied detail heavy"* mod that all but ignores the Japanese side, especially small tidbits and chrome on the Japanese side (many of which s not even documented, or dosuments were lost by the end of WW2).
* Malicious observers may even say "Allied fanboy mod" but I am not going that far - at least for now [:D]
House rules suffice but to answer Olegs quip, we are a little detail freakish but hey, that's what it is all about and PH was important enough to be selected by Japan.
Detail freakiness is OK, in fact we could say it's what this game is all about. But as I said I'm afraid you CHS guys - with all the best intentions you have - are Allied detail freaks, not nearly enough Japanese detail freaks, in fact you Ron just admitted couple posts above you never even tried to play all-important first turn from the IJN side.
How many IJN experts - not to mention stuff like "China air war experts" or "Chinese civil war experts" or "Mongolian collaboarationist unit experts" or "Javanese resource WW2 production experts" - do you have in your team?
Don't get me wrong, I wish CHS all the best, but as far as I can tell end result will be "Allied detail heavy"* mod that all but ignores the Japanese side, especially small tidbits and chrome on the Japanese side (many of which s not even documented, or dosuments were lost by the end of WW2).
* Malicious observers may even say "Allied fanboy mod" but I am not going that far - at least for now [:D]
Oleg
Lemurs, Subchaser to name a few esteemed guys are Japanese OOB experts. This is not an Allied fanboy mod by any means. Just look at the OOB additions for Japan which Don Bowen has added, the merchant additions are massive. Keeping the Japanese fans from adding too many what ifs but not including the actual historical Allied units present/built in order to "balance" the game has been an enjoyable "issue". After all, this is supposed to be as near to historical as we can get it. If someone wants to add/alter it later that's fine, but as a template, it should be historical.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
Thing is, when you guys all have access to it on Spooky's for a universal Alpha test, you will see just how objective the mod is.
I remain highly suspicious, but will gladly try it the moment it gets ready for prime time.
As for Lemurs, I don't want this to get "personal", but his mods are so badly documented, I decided to personally avoid them long time ago. I think he's too "trigger happy" when it gets to changing many apparently important factors that we don't - perhaps not even Mike or Gary himself [;)]- know all about. Lemurs changes those mystic parameters with much easiness, and documents nothing. Not good IMO. (Now I speak regardless of Allied or IJN fanboyism.)
Thing is, when you guys all have access to it on Spooky's for a universal Alpha test, you will see just how objective the mod is.
I remain highly suspicious, but will gladly try it the moment it gets ready for prime time.
As for Lemurs, I don't want this to get "personal", but his mods are so badly documented, I decided to personally avoid them long time ago. I think he's too "trigger happy" when it gets to changing many apparently important factors that we don't - perhaps not even Mike or Gary himself [;)]- know all about. Lemurs changes those mystic parameters with much easiness, and documents nothing. Not good IMO. (Now I speak regardless of Allied or IJN fanboyism.)
O.
I think I'm going to take on the documentation of change task. It's going to be pretty huge as you can well imagine. I'm apologizing in advance if my ability with the software (or lack of it) is a glaring pain in the ass for those wading through it.[;)] I seem to remember you are a bit of a stickler about this. The documentation will be basically what was changed/added/removed. In many cases, not all micro details are going to be dealt with as they will be self explanatory by simply looking at the units/bases etc.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
As for Kansas, I don't think we can add it to the map but I can put Dorothy and Toto into the leader list if that would make you happy.
I have been doing some experimentation with adding Kansas to the map. However after a few turns Toto disappeared and was replaced with a 0/0 Akita Inu! What can we do about that?
Oleg - if you have any thoughts about what needs to be done about the Japanese, then let us know. I for one am very ignorant about the Japaneses forces in WW2 (Actually I am almost as ignorant about the Allies). I would be happy for more Japanese fan boys to help us out...
Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website
Problem is I don't consider myself IJ fanboy, much less IJN expert. Now fisrt of all sorry for hijacking this thread...
I will try to explain my "thought process" (wow some heavy words lightly thrown). Allied fanboys (lets call them that just for arguments sake) ask that AVG Flying Tigers be exempted from so called "early Zero advantage" because, apparently, they knew Zero before, and were not surprised by Zeros. Since there are soooo many Allied fanboys on this board, there is flurry of posts, and devs (or CHS guys or whomever) accept this reasoning, or are blackmailed, and in the next patch AVG is exempted from Zero advantage, even though this rule is usually abused by Allied players.
OK; fine, no problem, some US books credit AVG with being superior to Zeros, and I could accept this, even though sources may have pro-US bias. (I am sure Japanese books on this subject, if any exist, or if any is known outside Japan, would have different point of view.)
BUT!...
Then, we have AVG killing Zeros like flies all over SE Asia (only stupid, or very fair Allied players actually leave them in one place), while China AF squadron, or RAF squadron, based on the same airbase, still suffers from Zero advantage. Wow, these Chinese pilots never met Zero before? Of course they did.
Real answer is: AVG has some powerful fanboys and advocates on WITP board, while XYth God Forgotten Zero-fodder Chinese AF fighter squadron does not. Face it: that is one and only reason! No one cares for Chinese, Mongolians, Burma front, pro-Japanese volunteers, and many many other semiobscure subjects, or no one knows nearly enough about them to argue, whine and demand their inclusion or tweaking, in the game (or mod).
Perhaps there was (I don't say there was, cause I don't know) one IJAAF squadron specialised in killing B29 late in war, or manned by malaria resistant pilots, or manned by Indian volunteers, or manned by highly trained baboons. We know nothing about it, we never read books about them, those guys don't have numerous and powerful advocates on this board or CHS team, and thus they will never be included, they will never have special rule for them, nor will they have their ratings adjusted in CHS.
What about Manchukuo airforce, or their army? We know they existed, but no one cares about such unglamorous subject to actualy research it. Face it.
That's why I'm saying you must include some heavyweight IJN, IJA, and various obscure topics experts in your team if you want to produce a balanced mod. Currently there's far too many allied (or should I say US) experts in CHS team, which naturally leads to "Allied detail heavy" mod. Lemurs I am suspicious about (no offense), which, according to Ron, leaves only Subchaser as "Japanese expert" (and only OOB expert). May be too little. Just my opinion.
OK; if you don't have "obscure pro-Japanese experts" in your team, then I think some abstraction is warranted. Don't go too far with "AVG special rules", "PH repair tweaking" and "87th New Zealand Volunteer Kiwi Batallion" if - truth be told - you (we) don't know nearly anough about their counterparts on the other side (or Chinese side, or Dutch side...).
Hmmmm, this post is too long, and nor really very coherent but I hope it could get the message accross...
Akita Inu....were not in Kansas anymore!!! Auntie Emito Fujimatsu...there's no place like Tokyo...there's no place like Tokyo.
Wait....after the Allied Fanboys get done there will be no Tokyo.....
ahhhh the sky is falling the sky is falling
oh yea...and to keep on the topic...well at least try...I like detail...lots of detail...dont care whether allied or japanese.
So far nothing but fantastic ideas from the CHM Boys !!
My only concern is that the game engine doesn't do justice to this OOB. It's still worth doing though ...
With respect to documenting changes, and with my "UNIX guy" head on - something automatic could have been rigged with a version control system (e.g. CVS) and the WitP load utility. Too late now though I guess.
The Baboon squadron is in testing stages. They were just getting around to using machine guns instead of throwing fruit out the window when the war ended.
Suspicious of me? I have to ask for a little clarification. I feel i am probably the most knowledegable person on this board in regards to Japan with a possible exception of Subchaser.
What have i done to weaken Japan? Or not to fully represent Japan?
ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
Suspicious of me? I have to ask for a little clarification. I feel i am probably the most knowledegable person on this board in regards to Japan with a possible exception of Subchaser.
What have i done to weaken Japan? Or not to fully represent Japan?
I never accused you of trying to weaken Japan or not fully represent Japan. I think you're too "trigger happy" when it comes to various changes to the database. I said, quote from page 1 of this thread:
As for Lemurs, I don't want this to get "personal", but his mods are so badly documented, I decided to personally avoid them long time ago. I think he's too "trigger happy" when it gets to changing many apparently important factors that we don't - perhaps not even Mike or Gary himself - know all about. Lemurs changes those mystic parameters with much easiness, and documents nothing. Not good IMO. (Now I speak regardless of Allied or IJN fanboyism.)
The Baboon squadron is in testing stages. They were just getting around to using machine guns instead of throwing fruit out the window when the war ended.
Suspicious of me? I have to ask for a little clarification. I feel i am probably the most knowledegable person on this board in regards to Japan with a possible exception of Subchaser.
What have i done to weaken Japan? Or not to fully represent Japan?
Mike
If I remember correctly, Oleg had an issue with your mods due to incomplete documentation of changes. I don't think he doubts your expertise.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
