Dummy SS and Schobert? Annoying

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 12:26 am

Shouldnt something be done about "Dummy SS" in Norway?

And when shall the commander of 11th army, Shobert, be removed from the 1942 campaign? As you probably know he was killed on a minefield and died in september 1941.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 1:38 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Shouldnt something be done about "Dummy SS" in Norway?

And when shall the commander of 11th army, Shobert, be removed from the 1942 campaign? As you probably know he was killed on a minefield and died in september 1941.

What is this about the Dummy SS in Norway issue? Not sure what you are talking about - is it in a specific scenario or what? Only unreachable hexes of Norway are present, so not even sure where to look for the problem. Are you seeing this Dummy SS unit in the Norway area? If so, what hex and in what situation - I don't show anything up there.

I didn't know Shobert was killed in 1941, but we can replace him easy enough. Someone else needs to be stuck in the slot, though. Any suggestions - everyone I though of off the top of my head is already in, plus some I never would have thought of. I guess Halder would be one possibility. I will give it more thought and some research, but someone else needs to be stuck in there.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: RickyB ]

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:57 am

Dummy SS appears the first time you scroll the map to Norway but disappear thereafter. Its not a problem but it would be nice if it could be gone. Take a look.

As for Shobert he was a great source of inspiration for the men under his command. His tragic death opened for Mansteins first army command under which he sucessfully led the crimean campaign gaining the title of field-marshall. However reading "Verlorene Siege" for the 16th time Manstein gives a good verdict about Shobert.

By the way Manstein very firmly describes von Brauchitsch as an inferior commander to Rundstedt and Leeb. In the game Brauchitsch ranks 7 and Leeb 6, interesting fact altough Mansteins opinion maybe should be seen in the light of the treatment of his "ardenner-plan" inside OKW and OKH?

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 2:33 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:

I didn't know Shobert was killed in 1941, but we can replace him easy enough.

Doesn't the game now run checks when it uses a commander to see if the commander is injured or killed (or executed by Stalin/Hitler)? This sounds like the Fronts issue about events being either hardwired or more randomly triggered. We shouldn't "hardwire" leaders any more than Front events. Let the roll of the dice decide the fate of leaders.

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 3:27 pm

Well we are fighting our own war in the East. Why shouldn't leaders be delt with at random. It would be handy if Zhukov was killed in the defence of Moscow.

It may or may not add to the fun of it all.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:40 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
Doesn't the game now run checks when it uses a commander to see if the commander is injured or killed (or executed by Stalin/Hitler)? This sounds like the Fronts issue about events being either hardwired or more randomly triggered. We shouldn't "hardwire" leaders any more than Front events. Let the roll of the dice decide the fate of leaders.

It is not an issue in the 1941 campaign, which starts with historical leaders and then they can "die" or be removed for other reasons from the game. This is an issue in the 1942 scenario, where Shobert is present but not assigned to anything, and thus can be used-maybe it should be the "Ghost of Shobert". However, since the 1942 scenario should also be historical at its beginning, he needs to be removed and replaced with a historically accurate possible replacement, if someone (Kuniworth found it and I think should nominate a replacement) can come up with somebody, who was still alive and could have been used if Hitler desired.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:48 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Dummy SS appears the first time you scroll the map to Norway but disappear thereafter. Its not a problem but it would be nice if it could be gone. Take a look.

Interesting. I have never seen any reason to look up there, but now I see it. It actually is tied to the more troubling but still minor issue of first scrolling anywhere along the west edge, which causes every other row to lock in a half hex if you then try to scroll up and down. Do this and scroll up and the problem is there. My guess is it will be far down Arnaud's list, but it is probably a fairly easy fix overall.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:05 pm

Besides Schobert I hope you remember from earlier posts that Reichenau died in january 42. None of these two should be available in fall blau and thereafter. Hope this will be fixed to the next version. When is it ready by the way?

I will study closely the matter of Generals on the two sides. Also as you know there are troubles on the soviet side;

Pavlov led the west front and were excecuted july 41 for the debacle of the Biyalistok-pocket but are still available in 42 and forward. Must be changed.

I will do a real studying of the generals and their ratings. I will keep you informed of my findings and opinions.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:13 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Besides Schobert I hope you remember from earlier posts that Reichenau died in january 42. None of these two should be available in fall blau and thereafter. Hope this will be fixed to the next version. When is it ready by the way?

I will study closely the matter of Generals on the two sides. Also as you know there are troubles on the soviet side;

Pavlov led the west front and were excecuted july 41 for the debacle of the Biyalistok-pocket but are still available in 42 and forward. Must be changed.

I will do a real studying of the generals and their ratings. I will keep you informed of my findings and opinions.

Reichenau is already replaced in the latest unreleased version. I think that is where Guderian got back in from. I thought of Himmler, but he is already in, and Heinrici, and Balck, and... You get the idea. I will have to get some sources out and see who else commanded late in the war at a high level to see who to use. Maybe you, or Mist, have suggestions to replace Pavlov with, as I don't know the Soviet leaders well enough to dig into possible replacements. I guess one solution if we don't have good candidates to plug in would be to just set a very long availability date on these guys and leave the slot open.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 9:05 pm

Well do you want names on Generals that fought on the eastern front or is it o with well known people. For instance the game is inconsitent at seperating this, both Rommel and Kesselring(no ground unit assaignment in Russia) is available for command.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 9:13 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Well do you want names on Generals that fought on the eastern front or is it o with well known people. For instance the game is inconsitent at seperating this, both Rommel and Kesselring(no ground unit assaignment in Russia) is available for command.

I agree that since the game already includes generals from other fronts that the pool of leaders should include ones from the western front, and possibly North Africa. I guess that gives me one idea - von Arnim could be included as he commanded the Axis in North Africa right before the surrender, so he would be a good candidate, and did serve in the east before going to Africa.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:50 pm

Ok Rick Ive spent my friday evening plunging through materials about the generals. Well the list is´nt very updated to say the least especially on the soviet side were I found some really strange names. Mekhlis for example who the hell is that? Maybe Mist knows...

Some names on the soviet side is also included barely for the reason of beeing "Marshal of the soviet union" not for possessing an important chief-command.

Something strange though. When I searched the database I didnt find names like Angelis or Jordan available altough Im certain that they were there earlier. Am I hallucinating? Dont know how it works now but its a lot of names that maybe should be picked in, I must admit that I don´t know how to rate everybody but we´ll have to vote here in the forum I guess.

However I collected some new information on KIA.

Russia;

Smirnov 41
Kirponos 41(a shame, checked Kleist´s advance in the south pretty good)

I will add some names and propose some changes in the near future.

As for your questions I think their should be room for good commanders from other fronts. Blummentritt, Thoma,

valuable information can be found at www.generals.dk

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:53 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Ok Rick Ive spent my friday evening plunging through materials about the generals. Well the list is´nt very updated to say the least especially on the soviet side were I found some really strange names. Mekhlis for example who the hell is that? Maybe Mist knows...
...
valuable information can be found at www.generals.dk

Mekhlis was a political hatchet man for Stalin. I believe they knew each other from the fighting during the revolution. He was primarily a political officer but did act as a representative of the supreme command. The closest I know of him to commanding units is in the Crimea in 1942, where he was checking things during the Soviet attack and Manstein's capture of Sevastopol, I think. I don't believe he ever had a combat command.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:13 am

Another KIA - Vatutin 43. Should be removed from Bagration and 44-campaign.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:49 am

good work Kuniworth! Thank you for checking leaders. As for Mekhlis, hm, I don't know him commanding army, but his power was enough to freeze any army commander in place as it happened in Crimea when landed troops did not prepare to defence(because defence was considered as loosing) after it was obvious that offensive stalled. Result: brilliant Von Manstein had chewed them up like tasty chicken leg while having comparable amount of troops. I think Mekhlis should be left in leaders list(before 1943) because he was often sent to front HQs to "rise their morale" and "make commanders to work better". His low rating is showing terrifying results of his missions.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 4:08 am

Yes I found some information on Mekhlis. He was vice defenseminister acting as an observer on the crimean front. Responsible for correcting wrong decision among the military command. Blaming Kozlov for the failure in the crimean may-offensive 42 Mekhils was removed to service outside the military by Stalin for not beeing "objective" nor competent.

He never had any military command. But becuase he played so important role on the conflict I think he should be in anyway.

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:09 pm

How about Purkaev. He was the in charge of the Kalinin Front during 42.

Originally posted by RickyB:

Reichenau is already replaced in the latest unreleased version. I think that is where Guderian got back in from. I thought of Himmler, but he is already in, and Heinrici, and Balck, and... You get the idea. I will have to get some sources out and see who else commanded late in the war at a high level to see who to use. Maybe you, or Mist, have suggestions to replace Pavlov with, as I don't know the Soviet leaders well enough to dig into possible replacements. I guess one solution if we don't have good candidates to plug in would be to just set a very long availability date on these guys and leave the slot open.