North-south strategy in 1941

[Lorenzo from Spain]

All people says: German player must try conquer Moscow in 1941, and use there the better units and resources.
But there is any alternative? Yes! The north-south strategy in Barbarossa:

That ́s why I prefer attack first Leningrad and Kharkov.
Kharkov, Leningrad, Dnepropetrovsk and Stalino have: 45 population, 25 resources, 30 Heavy ind, 5 oil, 20 recon, 25 art, 10 T-34, 10 aircraft. I ́don’t count Rostov: is difficult to conquer and impossible to defend during winter. 1 political VP
Moscow has: 42 population, 20 resources, 20 Heavy ind, 10 oil, 10 recon, 15 art, 25 T-60 (same as 10 T-34), 29 aircraft. And 3 political Victory points.
So, the north-south strategy is equivalent in resources conquered, but has some advantages against a "center" strategy (attack Moscow):
The Russians must extend their armies along a long front.
They are place to panzer maneoubring and encirclement.
After Kiev, there are not obstacles.
It is possible conquer Leningrad and Kharkov before october (even in the firsts weeks of september).
And Moscow strategy has some disadvantages:
There is a front limited by the swamps and mountains of Demiansk by the north, and the Oka river by the south. The Russians can concentrate their forces in defensive and well entrenched lines, and the German mobility don ́t allows encirclements: it ́s necessary advance step by step.
If the Germans fails in the conquest of Moscow and they haven ́t Leningrad and Kharkov, the soviet winter counteroffensive will be terrible. And along 1942, soviets will be stronger...
And the worst of all: is predictable. The Russian knows Moscow is the goal, and can act consequently.

I prefer done priority to Leningrad and Kharkov, advancing in the center but without extra reinforcements in tanks or aircrafts.
The only problem of north-south strategy is the early cross of Dnieper, to conquer Kiev without assault. This cross must be backed with the entire Lutwaffe.
When conquered Leningrad and Kharkov in late september, all the German forces converges on Moscow, attacking it from west and south (Tula); even sometimes from north (Kalinin). All Lutwaffe back them.
They try conquest Moscow, but if not is possible (specially if it rains a lot), they must destroy as russians as possible, weaking the russian winter counteroffensive.
At the half of November, the Germans stops the offensive and prepare the winter. How resist it is another history...
Sometimes, Moscow will wait to 1942.

[Kuniworth]

No Moscow doesnt have to fall and against good opositon its also near impossible to complete that. Its enough to advance to Velikiye Luki and make your troops entrench waitin for the soviet winter-offensive.

I honestly however see Leningrad as difficult to capture due to the awful terrain. A well prepared defence can hold off attacks pretty good, by the way it isnt a coincidence that the front in this area 41-44 reminded of the trench-war in WWI.

But can you tell me, if Moscow isnt a priority at first, how far has your troops in AGC advanced when you cature Kharkov, Leningrad?

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
No Moscow doesnt have to fall and against good opositon its also near impossible to complete that. Its enough to advance to Velikiye Luki and make your troops entrench waitin for the soviet winter-offensive.

I honestly however see Leningrad as difficult to capture due to the awful terrain. A well prepared defence can hold off attacks pretty good, by the way it isnt a coincidence that the front in this area 41-44 reminded of the trench-war in WWI.

But can you tell me, if Moscow isnt a priority at first, how far has your troops in AGC advanced when you cature Kharkov, Leningrad?

The easiest way I have found to capture Leningrad is to drive to the east of it with Panzers. Capture 44, 6 which is the historical location where the Soviets ran their supply operations for Leningrad and the city immediately goes out of supply. From then, give it just a few turns. This terrain is open, with just one river to cross from the Leningrad area. Historically, the Germans reached this area but a quick Soviet counterattack agains the weakened Germans forced them back and reopened this area for a supplyhead to keep Leningrad supplied (barely).

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by RickyB:
but a quick Soviet counterattack agains the weakened Germans forced them back and reopened this area for a supplyhead to keep Leningrad supplied (barely).

Yea, barely, no kidding. Close to a million civilians died in Leningrad, mainly starvation and the cold of the winters.
The Siege of Leningrad ought to get at least the same amount of attention that Stalingrad gets, I think.

[Lorenzo from Spain]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
No Moscow doesnt have to fall and against good opositon its also near impossible to complete that. Its enough to advance to Velikiye Luki and make your troops entrench waitin for the soviet winter-offensive.

I honestly however see Leningrad as difficult to capture due to the awful terrain. A well prepared defence can hold off attacks pretty good, by the way it isnt a coincidence that the front in this area 41-44 reminded of the trench-war in WWI.

But can you tell me, if Moscow isnt a priority at first, how far has your troops in AGC advanced when you cature Kharkov, Leningrad?

In last month, Íve played PEBM this way three times (and three different enemies), with little changes and same results.
Against computer, is easier. But in WIR 2, and playing against computer, I never conquered Moscow.
Before this, playing I as German, Íve been totally defeated by a veteran player, really very good player.
This is the timing of my last Barbarossa attack, in PEBM:
Begins Barbarossa.
In the north, 4 Pz group, backed by 18 Army; and 3 Pz group, backed by 16 Army. The 40 Pz corp is assigned to 4 Pz group. 100 Replacement Points (to Pz groups).
In the center: 2 Pz group, backed by 4 and 9 armies. 70 Replacement Points (to Pz groups).
In the South: 1 Pz group, backed by 17 and 6 armies. 80 Replacement Points (to Pz groups). To attack Odessa: 11 army, with a extra Pz corp.
All infantry units receives 60 replacement points.

June/22: 4 Pz group conquest Riga; 3 Pz group, Vilna, 1 Pz group Tarnopol and Lvov. 2 Pz group surround Bialystok (2 infantry armies and 1 tank army) and conquest Brest-Litvosk. Lutwaffe attacks Russian airports.
June/29: General advances. 2 Pz group conquest Minsk; the 4 army clear the cauldron of Bialystok. Odessa falls after surprise Pz attack: the russian south front collapses.
July/6: 3 Pz group conquest Daugavplis; 1 Pz group, Zhitomir.
July/13: 4 and 3 Pz group converges on Pskov, attack rejected. 2 Pz group conquest Mogileb. 9 army, with an extra pz corp, go through the road Daugavplis-Vitebsk.
July/20: Psokv conquered. Backed by almost all Lutwaffe, 1 Pz group cross the Dnieper and surround Kiev. The center army rest.
July/27: Kiev falls. The 2 pz corp attack Smolensk, but the city resist.
August/3: South, Center and North army group rest. The 3 Panzer group goes through Velikiye Luki. The 9 army takes Vitebsk.
August/10: 2 Pz group conquest Somolenks, forming a big “cauldron”. A detachment of 2 Pz group, going into the south, form a new cauldron in Gomel. A Pz corp of 3 Pz group cuts the railroad Velikiye Luki-Moscow.
August/17: Backed by near all Lutwaffe, an elite SS Panzer reinforced division of 1 Pz group takes Kharkov by assault. Total surprise in STAVKA. Velikiye Luki, evacuate because risque of surround.
August/24: North branch of 2 Pz Division surrounds Vyazma; south branch surround and takes Brianks. A Pz division of 3 Pz group, in deep penetration, cuts the railroad between Demyansk and Moscow.
August/31: Backed by near all Lutwaffe, 4 Pz army cut the railroad between Tikhvin and the rest of Russia. Not only Leningrad are without supply, but the entire soviet north front is in danger. The russian player evacuates Ukraine, and Dnepropetrovsk falls without resistence. The group army south split: the most part go to the north, to Tula; others detachments go to east (Voronezh) and south. Vyazma surrender to 2 Pz group. Center group Army receives more OP, South group Army, minus.
September, 7: One of deep pz divisions on north has been annihilated be russian forces, near Tikhvin. The widows have received the Iron Cross. Leningrad, without supply, resist a strong attack. In the south, fall Zaporozhe, Kurks and Orel, without too much resistence.
September, 14: Another deep panzer penetration cuts the supply to north front in Tikhvin. Without food or ammunition, Leningrad surrender. 3 Pz group conquest Demyansk and Rzhev. The entire Red Army concentrates to defend Moscow, in three strongly entrenched lines. The Center Group armies receives 100 OP: total priority.
September, 21: 1 Pz group takes Tula. 2 and 3 Pz groups begin the assault to Moscow defenses. 4 Pz group rest in north, destroying the rest of soviets units. Soviets defend Voronezh and the little river west of Rostov.
September, 28: Continues the battle of Moscow, with all Lutwaffe bombing soviet defenses.
October: The rain stops military operations. Lutwaffe bombs. When snow, Pz group 1, 2 and 3 attack again. Guderian prepares a line to cover a general retreat, sending from France and by rail fresh divisions. (In France, during 1941 winter, level is “0").
November: snow. In the HQ of Wermatch the generals decide go on the offensive on Moscow. Blizzards are near, but victory too. There is not time to an encircle movement: it will be a direct assault, with Lutwaffe support.

First november offensive, fails at the gates of Moscow.
November, 19. Bombed by every bomber and fighter of Lutwaffe, Moscow falls and the new soviet government surrenders. The Red Air Force and the Red Army are nearly destroyed.
The war is over.
Really, I think if the factories of Leningrad and Karkov are producting, it´s not posible break the Moscow defenses, even launching all Wermatch and Lutwaffe.

[Mist]

Thank you for your posts Lorenzo! Quite enjoying indeed. It is realy fresh view on German strategy in 1941. I was thinking a lot about possible indirrect and surprize actions of strategic scale in 1941 but did not come to anything because I value Moscow too much. So, IMHO German actions in 1941 are largely predictable and (sigh) direct. But after your post(!) action of direct assault on Moscow become indirrect to my greatest pleasure. Your description of fast company in 1941 is good, though I have some comments. First: it does not realy matter on operational level how much replacement level is set for Army Group in a given turn if replacements are above SL*10. Second: it hardly makes a fast influence on defence of Moscow if you capture factories of Leningrad and Kharkov.

[Lorenzo from Spain]

Originally posted by Mist:
[QB]IMHO German actions in 1941 are largely predictable and (sigh) direct. QB]

Yes. I´dont think the german player always must play this way. But he has this posibility. So the russian must defend north, center and south, becaus place and date of attacks are now unpredictable.

When I said about the replacement level, only indicates the priority of replacements. I know at beggining are a lot of OP. But where to send the Pz who came from factories?

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:Yes. I´dont think the german player always must play this way. But he has this posibility. So the russian must defend north, center and south, becaus place and date of attacks are now unpredictable.

When I said about the replacement level, only indicates the priority of replacements. I know at beggining are a lot of OP. But where to send the Pz who came from factories?

Actually, I am fairly sure on replacements that the game looks at the HQs in a specific order every turn, and if units are below the set replacement level, those units will get replacements. It then continues through all the HQs in that order until it runs out of units to check or replacements it is willing to part with from the pool. I don't think the actual replacement level plays any role in who gets priority, it is strictly based on this order. Thus, if the HQ set to lower replacements is looked at first and uses all the replacements, the higher replacement level HQs won't get any. Could be wrong about this though.

[Dan in Toledo]

On paper your Leningard-Stalino-Dneprpetrovsk-Kharkov theory is good. Yes the 4 them have a little more industry then Moscow. However, keep in mind that Moscow is one city and the others are 4. Capturing Kharkov and the others is not all that difficult, especially after Kiev falls. Since the 3 cities in the Ukraine are not that far from each other capturing all them in succesion is not difficult. My advice is to still go after Moscow. It is by far the most important city in the USSR!!

[Mist]

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo:
On paper your Leningard-Stalino-Dneprpetrovsk-Kharkov theory is good. Yes the 4 them have a little more industry then Moscow. However, keep in mind that Moscow is one city and the others are 4. Capturing Kharkov and the others is not all that difficult, especially after Kiev falls. Since the 3 cities in the Ukraine are not that far from each other capturing all them in succesion is not difficult. My advice is to still go after Moscow. It is by far the most important city in the USSR!!

If there would not be that strange Ural nine factories limitation, I would argue that you are wrong. But since Soviet player can't evacuate all factories in danger to Ural it becomes to costly to lose Moscow, yes. Another limitation(which will partialy be removed in next version) is rail conversion problem which forbids German to advance further than Rostov before blizzards even if no resistance is seen. So, Moscow is still perfect target for German player, but on the other hand if Soviet player has limited forces he will always defend Moscow first.

[matt.buttsworth]

Very good strategy Lorenzo.
Could work but Leningrad is a hard take if properly defended.
Another plus, if the Russians seriously try to defende the South - Kiev, Dneprovosk, etc - fighting behind the river itis possible to stop the Germans quickly surrounding Kiev, and if that can be held until late July, beginning of August or longer, the entire south with the exception of Kharkov can be held, leaving the Russians in a terrific position for a winter counteroffensive.
Giving up the South too easily I now think is a serious Russian flaw.
But if the Germans do not attack strongly in army group centre an advance ot the North should be very difficult and redelployed armoued units in the south should make that very difficult to take to.
Interesting variation. Interesting to fight against.
As always your ideas are inscisive although I think the changed railway lines in the south in version 3.0 make taking it much harder.

[matt.buttsworth]

Very good strategy Lorenzo.
Could work but Leningrad is a hard take if properly defended.
Another plus, if the Russians seriously try to defende the South - Kiev, Dneprovosk, etc - fighting behind the river itis possible to stop the Germans quickly surrounding Kiev, and if that can be held until late July, beginning of August or longer, the entire south with the exception of Kharkov can be held, leaving the Russians in a terrific position for a winter counteroffensive.
Giving up the South too easily I now think is a serious Russian flaw.
But if the Germans do not attack strongly in army group centre an advance ot the North should be very difficult and redelployed armoued units in the south should make that very difficult to take to.
Interesting variation. Interesting to fight against.
As always your ideas are inscisive although I think the changed railway lines in the south in version 3.0 make taking it much harder.