Modding Base data (Edit, was "Issues with keyboard controls"...)

[PDiFolco]

Hi,
After some play with the Demo I bought the game - it's a pretty good one !
However as I've no joystick (or rather have a broken one..) I've to rely on keyboard commands.
In the demo everything was fine, the L/R arrows allowed to turn (yaw) "quickly" (that is with a rather fast rate). Now in the full game the standard config is to have the arrows controlling rolls and and 7/9 num keys control yaw.
It' unplayable for me, turn by rolling with keys give a very bad flight (as to have to roll, then pitch, with keys you can't control effectively simultaneous roll+pitch), and as I've no tentacles I can't use simultaneously a mouse, the up/down keys and the numpad !
I've tried to change the controls with J key or a key remapping in the options menu, but in this case the yaw is done at a very slow rate (much slower than when it's on the numpad keys) !! Can't understand why it does that...

<found how to get Wide view- paragraph edited>

A last question : I do miss having shields on fighters or at least bombers, this makes the game too much like a contemporary flight sim and also reduces dramatically my life expectancy [X(] [:'(] . Does some mod exists to add shields to the small craft ? Can I do it myself ?

Thx .

[Kuokkanen]

You can't make any modifications for stock game ships/fighters. If you die, then learn to fly.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Realistically the keyboard+mouse controls for fighters suck wind. Utterly unuseable in atmosphere. It's much much better to use a joystick, or stick with capital ships. Of course you can't do that to start off.

[John DiCamillo]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
I've tried to change the controls with J key or a key remapping in the options menu, but in this case the yaw is done at a very slow rate (much slower than when it's on the numpad keys) !! Can't understand why it does that...

It's a bug. Thanks very much for pointing it out, as I never noticed it before. I have fixed it for version 4.5.0.

[PDiFolco]

ORIGINAL: John DiCamillo

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
I've tried to change the controls with J key or a key remapping in the options menu, but in this case the yaw is done at a very slow rate (much slower than when it's on the numpad keys) !! Can't understand why it does that...

It's a bug. Thanks very much for pointing it out, as I never noticed it before. I have fixed it for version 4.5.0.

A direct reply by the dev, great support ! [;)]
Great, I've found a bug on my first minute of play ! Can you add me to the 4.5 betatest team ? [:D]

I suppose that anyway I either have to buy a new stick or try the mouse in virtual joystick mode. As others pointed out keyboard control is nearly unplayable in atmosphere ...

Re shields on fighters : well, I thought that anything was moddable in this game.. Why the stock ships aren't ? [&:][:-]
I've browsed some forums and it doesn't look difficult to create shielded fighters, but if I have to create new ships and make a campaign with them it's another matter ... [:(]

[Dragonlead]

Fighters aren't shielded in the stock game for one simple reason. Milo didn't want them to have shields. That is one of the best things about this game. you CAN go in and make it whatever you want it to be.
However, fighters are by their nature fragile things when compared to capital ships (even in real life). It is therefore quite reasonable to make the call that fighters should not be given this extra protection. It adds another level of challenge (when you get there) of resource management. As a carrier group commander you have to ask yourself how many fighters you're willing to lose in any single engagement.

All I would say is, we are all playing Milo's game. It isn't really for us to criticize the choices he made, especially when he has given us the tools to change things to suit virtually any creation we can come up with.

V/R

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Dragonlead

you CAN go in and make it whatever you want it to be.

This is greatly exaggerated. Starship can have only 8 ports for main engine flares, there is very limited choice for colours of said flares, AI can sometimes be jackass and modder can't do anything for it, there are certain subsystems available and modders can't create their own subsystems, tools to create planet surfaces isn't publicly available etc. These just few examples about restrictions of the game.

[PDiFolco]

I'm becoming confused : can I or not change the stock units and missions ? [&:] Some say you can change anything, other say you can't change the base game data and missions ...
Milo decided to have shieldless fighters, I don't have my voice on this, but why shouldn't be allowed to play the game with my shielded fighters instead ?[&:]

[John DiCamillo]

It is theoretically possible to hack the data files and change the parameters of the stock ships. However, that kind of hacking is not really supported by the mod system. The mod system is designed to let you create your own ships - either your own original designs or well known ships from other properties - and add them to the game. You can create your own missions using stock ships or custom ships in any combination you want.

Perhaps I'm getting out of touch. Do other space sims provide the ability to make modifications to the built-in ships out of the box? Is that capability common in other game genres?

[Pheonix Starflare]

What other space sims?

Honestly, the last one (besides Starshatter, of course) I really played was FS2, I think. Or IWar. I can't remember.
I doubt, seriously, that out of the box any sim-type game lets you mod things that much.
Things like sheilds fundamentally alter gameplay, and I'd be surprised if game dev's would be that comfortable letting players decide things like that. That would be like, in my opinion, putting GT4 into your playstation and stapping rocket boosters onto your Porche and then racing.
Now, years later, fans might crack things and put out mods with drastically different fundamental characteristics, like adding shields or whatnot to fighters, but not out of the box.
Just my $.02
Now for the rest of my physics HW...

[Dragonlead]

Without hacking files (as Milo indicated), the answer is no, you cannot use your shielded fighters in the stock game. The missions are scripted, in that the order of battle is fixed from the beginning of each campaign. This means that each carrier carries a specific number and type of fighter. Again, unless you hack the files, you will not be able to substitute a custom design for one of Milo's.
I have yet to run across a space sim that gives you that kind of leeway.
When I say that you can make it virtually whatever you want, I mean that you need to go in and build the ships, fighters, missions, etc. There are quite a few of us out there doing exactly that, and I have to be honest, it isn't all that hard to do. Folks who whine about, "boy I wish the game would do this or that" or "why can't I have my cake and eat it too" simply haven't investigated the incredible mod capability that was designed into this game almost from the beginning.
No game can be all things to all people. Milo has to limit or exclude certain capabilities just to get the game on the market. Otherwise he'd never get through everybody's wish list of capabilities. Does this mean your favorite wish for the game will never happen? No. But try to enjoy the game for what it can and does do.

I'll step off the soapbox now.

V/R

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: John DiCamillo

Do other space sims provide the ability to make modifications to the built-in ships out of the box? Is that capability common in other game genres?

TIE Fighter comes to mind. There are patches which change stats of the stock fighters. For X-Wing Alliance is mod XWA Upgrade. Mostly it improves graphics but minor things include different weapon hardpoints. XWAU is still under work but there has been available downloads for several years now.

[PDiFolco]

ORIGINAL: John DiCamillo

It is theoretically possible to hack the data files and change the parameters of the stock ships. However, that kind of hacking is not really supported by the mod system. The mod system is designed to let you create your own ships - either your own original designs or well known ships from other properties - and add them to the game. You can create your own missions using stock ships or custom ships in any combination you want.

Perhaps I'm getting out of touch. Do other space sims provide the ability to make modifications to the built-in ships out of the box? Is that capability common in other game genres?

Thanks for the answer. I'm not a big sim fan (and AFAIK they aren't very moddable usually) but like tactical or strategy space, fantasy or historical games. Out of my mind I can cite StarFleet Command and Total war series as allowing players to change anything or everything that comes initially shipped. And I think the Nexus Jupiter Incident game allows this too (dat files have to be hacked too but the devs agreed to let the hacking software get distributed).

The current SS modding abilities are great, but IMHO it's counterproductive to lock the base data. Why ? Because the game base data provide an unsurpassed "example" of how to do things correctly for modders, and allows beginning modders to touch the thing. For example, personnally I'll never be able (have neither the skills, the inclination nor the time) to do any 3D ship model. Yet I would be happy to take a SS fighter or cruiser, change its configuration and fly either custom new mission or even the base campaign with them. Maybe my missions will be crap, but wher's the problem ? If I ever distribute them noone will have to play them ! [X(]
The only cases I see are :
- If you used money-making licensed material the license owners can prefer to lock everything - it's the case with all LOTR material for example. You are in the same case technically, but the SS material is neither sufficiently known or profitable to make sense to this attitude (correct me if I'm wrong, and pardon if you find this offensive in any way [&o]).
- or if someone makes an offensive version of the game (boasting criminal feats, political rant, whatever), that could be a case for trial by the devs, but I've never seen that happen. [:-]

As a support to my views look at the big modding communities like those of SFC , TW, Europa Universalis et al (Paradox) series, SE4 and Dominions (Shrapnelgames) : everyone started by changing the base data, then some gifted/dedicated fans made "Total conversions" with totally new content. And the most popular mods are those changing the base data BTW.
For SS only a handful of mods are around, only very dedicated modders can do them, and they totally change the game (to usual ST, B5 and SW stuff): noone cares for the SS world, story, noone can (easily) add episodes, history, new wars to the SS background... Only a half-dozen missions exist, and I've yet to see a new campaign. [:(]

What's the point ? In the end, having more, and more varied, mods only help the game to sell, not the other way around .
If you really want to lock your creations, keep the dat files as they are but distribute the source data in "mod" format", so player could "double" the game with modded ones. You could even just release the mission and campaign data, so that the ships won't be touched but players could change/rebalance/extend missions and campaign.

Ok, rant over, now I've to learn to not lose my unshielded fighters [;)] but I'm pretty sure than opening the base data will make the game richer, more interesting, more popular and eventually sell more. Think of it.

[Papi]

Just click this link: Starshatter Central and you'll find lots of mods and missions [:D]

Edit: I just noticed that you said campaign, well... not yet.

[Arkblade]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
-open the game base data.
-players could change/rebalance/extend missions and campaign.

I agree it.
a reason like PDiFolco's it.
and, certainly, Starshatter Central contain some source type game data & explain game data.
but it insufficiency make balanced ship for milo's galaxy.
and if don't open game base data now, maybe someone analysis it.

-user extend Dynamic campaign.
I hope seriously it.
Dynamic campaigns are very exciting. i like it. but now can play base game's it only, can't make Dynamic campaigns.
and some day, if make new Dynamic campaigns, but can't playing without replace existing ones, or clear all existing Dynamic campaigns.
it's very inflict a loss game.
I think it's Starshatter's greatest defect.


--------------------------------
starshatter is marvelous game!![:D]

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I don't know about flight games, but most moddable RTS's let you fiddle with the base unit data. Some of the better mods around modify the original units and add units of their own.

[DamoclesX]

I will talk to milo about making campaigns open source

I have looked at the code for it tho, its not something you can whip up in a weekend, I would estimate it would take 1-2 months at least just to do one.

You also have to remember, milo is busy as hell right now, and in the future, its hard enough for him to do all that he does, he cant afford to trouble shoot the millions of questions that will come about when people start doing this

[DamoclesX]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Dragonlead

you CAN go in and make it whatever you want it to be.

This is greatly exaggerated. Starship can have only 8 ports for main engine flares, there is very limited choice for colours of said flares, AI can sometimes be jackass and modder can't do anything for it, there are certain subsystems available and modders can't create their own subsystems, tools to create planet surfaces isn't publicly available etc. These just few examples about restrictions of the game.

This should solve all your problems

[Arkblade]

ORIGINAL: DamoclesX
he cant afford to trouble shoot the millions of questions that will come about when people start doing this

hmm...
comunity's can't supported(reduce burden) Milo?

[DamoclesX]

ITs very complex, when/if I get more time, and if I can ever get the time to learn it myself and if milo decides to allow it I"ll will try, and so will others but its not like editing a simple ship def file lol