German attrition strategy in 1942

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:29 am

The germans can easily win the war making a war of attrition versus the Red Army in 1942 campaign. An unhistorical behaviour!!!
Also you can conquer Moscow and Leningrad more easily than 1941 because anybody suspects this (only 5 hexes from Moscow and too much turns to get it).Everybody Knows that germans can not never win an attrition war versus the soviets.
So if is not historical, can I play this strategy?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:41 am

Originally posted by Josan:
The germans can easily win the war making a war of attrition versus the Red Army in 1942 campaign. An unhistorical behaviour!!!
Also you can conquer Moscow and Leningrad more easily than 1941 because anybody suspects this (only 5 hexes from Moscow and too much turns to get it).Everybody Knows that germans can not never win an attrition war versus the soviets.
So if is not historical, can I play this strategy?

If I understand you right, you mean that German can simply exhaust Soviet manpower by straight ahead midnless attacks. Then you are wrong, because USSR has more population points even in 1942(about three times more squads per week) and comparable war production. Certanly, if you play against AI and it "forgets" to empty its RVGK HQs from newly created/rebuilt divisions it will soon run out of troops. But I doubt it very much that you can win the war of attrition against human oponent in 1942. Comon, try to use this strategy. I think noone will be against it. Didn't I miss something?

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:57 am

Its impossible to win a war of attrition playin Germany. But I agree that you´ll have to attack brutally to make the Sovietunion bleed. The panzer-corps is your weapon - use them!

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:02 am

Mist! Your german quote at the bottom - what does it say?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:16 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Mist! Your german quote at the bottom - what does it say?

It is from German panzer hymn. It says that our faces are all in dust but we feel ourselves great and this makes our panzer to rush through the storm winds. I have this song in mp3 among others which I listen when play WiR. It is truly great when this song coincicences with something realy successfull panzer move(like capturing Moscow by forward panzer groups in 1941 or successfly closing dangerous breakthrough in 1944.

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 4:10 am

Originally posted by Mist:

If I understand you right, you mean that German can simply exhaust Soviet manpower by straight ahead midnless attacks. Then you are wrong, because USSR has more population points even in 1942(about three times more squads per week) and comparable war production. Certanly, if you play against AI and it "forgets" to empty its RVGK HQs from newly created/rebuilt divisions it will soon run out of troops. But I doubt it very much that you can win the war of attrition against human oponent in 1942. Comon, try to use this strategy. I think noone will be against it. Didn't I miss something?

No you are wrong. Have you tested this versus a human player? I have make it many times against veteran players and works. Never I speak about strategy against IA, always versus human. If any have any doubt I can show it in a game. By the way only novice gamers "forget" empty RGVK , experienced played never.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 4:31 am

Originally posted by Josan:

No you are wrong. Have you tested this versus a human player? I have make it many times against veteran players and works. Never I speak about strategy against IA, always versus human. If any have any doubt I can show it in a game. By the way only novice gamers "forget" empty RGVK , experienced played never.

So, specify what you mean by words "war of attrition".
Your words about defeated veterans make me think that we are visited by veteran-killing brigade from Spain

I never played with human opponent, but as soon as I will have time for regular game, I will let know to one of you veteran-killers.

AI is worser than novice and "forgeting" to empty RVGK is just one of his features.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 4:47 am

Originally posted by Mist:

So, specify what you mean by words "war of attrition".
Your words about defeated veterans make me think that we are visited by veteran-killing brigade from Spain

I never played with human opponent, but as soon as I will have time for regular game, I will let know to one of you veteran-killers.

AI is worser than novice and "forgeting" to empty RVGK is just one of his features.

You must not think historically in 1942 campaign. You can take easily Leningrad (4 or 5 turns) and attack along the front with optimus odds. The soviets not receive the squads of 1941 so can not efford 3000-4000 squads of losses per turn. In a 2-1 ratio of losses the soviet collapses at the winter and german not. The soviet can not efford a continous battle every turn, the readiness drops and the germans manages this better making the wehrmacht more effective.Of course you must know how to move your panzers.
I Know that is unhistorical but I dont lie and works.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 11:03 am

Originally posted by Josan:

You must not think historically in 1942 campaign. You can take easily Leningrad (4 or 5 turns) and attack along the front with optimus odds. The soviets not receive the squads of 1941 so can not efford 3000-4000 squads of losses per turn. In a 2-1 ratio of losses the soviet collapses at the winter and german not. The soviet can not efford a continous battle every turn, the readiness drops and the germans manages this better making the wehrmacht more effective.Of course you must know how to move your panzers.
I Know that is unhistorical but I dont lie and works.

Thanx for explanations, Josan!
Your startegy has a right to live

I don't see any obstacles on its way. If German player manages to mantain 1:4 losses ratio and destroy more than 1600 Soviet squads while loosing less than 500 squads per week thoughout the 1942 year against Soviets, then he must be realy good and eventualy would win the war. Certanly I hardly can imagine such thing to be done in straight way, but I don't see it unhistorical also. It probably will be altered a bit after next release where fortified side will have more defensive advantage.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 6:33 pm

I see nothing wrong with it but believe strongly that the 1942 scenario is fundamentally flawed in that the Russian side is much weaker than it should be with half tank units missing until winter.
If it works why not, it is not a cheat, but the scenario needs to be balanced so that Russia is much, much stronger at the beginning and has a real hope of holding Leningrad. (The Finns never conquered a third of the city at the start - they never even attacked Leningrad so at the very least their forces should be all above the river and not occuping half the city.)

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 9:31 am

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
(The Finns never conquered a third of the city at the start - they never even attacked Leningrad so at the very least their forces should be all above the river and not occuping half the city.)

In the manual there is a timeline which mentions the Finns taking the square north of Leningrad, but they didn't attack Leningrad as you said, so the problem may be the placement of that extension of the city.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:18 pm

In the 42 german attrition strategy there is one system of production management that I dont know is a bug or I can use it ( ED?)
I explain :
- First I change the older tanks factories to Pz-IVG.
- In 2nd turn you put the factories under computer control. I use the Pz-IIIJ to replace the PzII and Pz38s. In september Pz-IVH becomes available and the computer begins to upgrade the Pz-III factories to new model(2 per turn I think) but only needs 1 turn to make the change!!!! In this form you can replace better and with more quality your panzerdivisionen and gain more tanks. But the doubt, can I make this or is a bug program?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:08 pm

Originally posted by Josan:
In the 42 german attrition strategy there is one system of production management that I dont know is a bug or I can use it ( ED?)
I explain :
- First I change the older tanks factories to Pz-IVG.
- In 2nd turn you put the factories under computer control. I use the Pz-IIIJ to replace the PzII and Pz38s. In september Pz-IVH becomes available and the computer begins to upgrade the Pz-III factories to new model(2 per turn I think) but only needs 1 turn to make the change!!!! In this form you can replace better and with more quality your panzerdivisionen and gain more tanks. But the doubt, can I make this or is a bug program?

I am not sure what part of this you are questioning as a bug. Computer controlled upgrades always take 1 turn, and player controlled are 4 I think. If you are making a factory change yourself, losing production for the 4 turns and then later letting the computer run the next upgrade with just the 1 turn delay, that is correct, not a bug and not a cheat. Now there is a problem that, knowing when an upgrade is coming, allows you to manually upgrade a factory to a different type right before an upgrade for the new type is available. This can result in the 4 turn delay being reduced to just 2 turns because of the AI upgrading the next turn, but if only 2 factories get changed, it may still have to wait. Anyway, when this works, I would call it a bug that shouldn't be purposely used. I don't do much with my factories so I have never seen this happen, but I know it can and others have discussed it.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:45 pm

Thankx Ricky for the explanation. A hard thing in wargames is that always knows when reinforcements and upgrades are coming.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:26 am

Originally posted by Mist:

It is from German panzer hymn. It says that our faces are all in dust but we feel ourselves great and this makes our panzer to rush through the storm winds. I have this song in mp3 among others which I listen when play WiR. It is truly great when this song coincicences with something realy successfull panzer move(like capturing Moscow by forward panzer groups in 1941 or successfly closing dangerous breakthrough in 1944.

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Mist!

Sounds great. When playing Germany I like listening to Rammstein. Got any good russian mp3-files to listen to while playing sovietunion?

Maybe you can send the panzer-hymn and other files of interest to my ICQ. Number is 83762039.

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:38 am

Originally posted by Josan:
The germans can easily win the war making a war of attrition versus the Red Army in 1942 campaign. An unhistorical behaviour!!!

Well, I thought too in 1942, the German will lost a attrition war. Mathematically:

German production:
263 squads, 164 tanks, 185 artillery, 162 aircrafts; and count with 342 OP : 136 resources, 90 heavy industry, 116 oil.
Russian production:
373 squads, 203 tanks, 107 artillery, 161 aircrafts. Count with 368 OP: 105 resources, 137 heavy industry, 129 oil.
Russians are worst only in artillery, even losing Rostov, Sevastopol and (sigh) Leningrad. The Germans must defend Africa too, and in august loose 15-20 fighters every turn defending Germany.

This is theory. In reality, I loose against Josan (again). My forces was exhausted in september, and Moscow falls (with Grodzny really in danger). I surrender.
Now, we are playing again a new 42 campaign, with me as russian. And I playing very conservative (is not soviet nor historic, I know). Not counterattacks, entrenchment, and wait, wait... wait until 1943, when Germans must send reinforcements to Italy and France. This will do? I´ll can resist? I dońt know. I´m playing very carefully (1 hour to study, 3 hours to play every turn), but there is a deep penetration in Caucasus. (Josan and I agree: the plain south of Don, it́s a good place to destroy any russian army)

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:29 pm

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
Well, I thought too in 1942, the German will lost a attrition war. Mathematically:

German production:
263 squads, 164 tanks, 185 artillery, 162 aircrafts; and count with 342 OP : 136 resources, 90 heavy industry, 116 oil.
Russian production:
373 squads, 203 tanks, 107 artillery, 161 aircrafts. Count with 368 OP: 105 resources, 137 heavy industry, 129 oil.
Russians are worst only in artillery, even losing Rostov, Sevastopol and (sigh) Leningrad. The Germans must defend Africa too, and in august loose 15-20 fighters every turn defending Germany.

This is theory. In reality, I loose against Josan (again). My forces was exhausted in september, and Moscow falls (with Grodzny really in danger). I surrender.
Now, we are playing again a new 42 campaign, with me as russian. And I playing very conservative (is not soviet nor historic, I know). Not counterattacks, entrenchment, and wait, wait... wait until 1943, when Germans must send reinforcements to Italy and France. This will do? I´ll can resist? I don?t know. I´m playing very carefully (1 hour to study, 3 hours to play every turn), but there is a deep penetration in Caucasus. (Josan and I agree: the plain south of Don, it?s a good place to destroy any russian army)

The squad numbers you are listing are base numbers. There is a multiplier to this number, so the actual number is higher than the numbers listed. I am not sure what it is, but it seems like the Axis are doubled in this time period and the Soviets are tripled, but I just am not sure. If I can find the e-mail that lists it I will post the actual amounts per period.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:22 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
If I can find the e-mail that lists it I will post the actual amounts per period.

Ask and ye shall receive!

The multipliers:

Germany:

2.0 in '41
2.5 in '43,'44
2.0 in '45

Soviets:

8.0 in '41
4.0 in '42,'43,'44
3.0 in '45.

The 8.0 represents full mobilization.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:04 pm

Thank, Ed. Not sure if I could have found it or not.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:51 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Ask and ye shall receive!

The multipliers:

Germany:

2.0 in '41
2.5 in '43,'44
2.0 in '45

Soviets:

8.0 in '41
4.0 in '42,'43,'44
3.0 in '45.

The 8.0 represents full mobilization.

Thanxs Ed, its a useful thing. I knew the replacements by Alt-R but now is more easy. More or less is the same in my notes. Over 500 squads for Germany per week and 1300-1700 for the soviets in 1942(I dont know this variations for the USSR).