Tournament when new patch ready

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:51 am

Ok we will start a tournament when the new version comes out. Post your interest down below. Any suggestions on restrictions and rules.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 4:23 am

HI,
I think all will enjoy with a tournament. We need more information about the changes in the new patch to make restrictions but we can discuss over the scenario or campaign.
Buck up and fight!!

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:20 pm

Sounds like fun.....

Would it be '41-45,'42-45 or scenarios.

Ideas.

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 6:28 pm

1942 does not work. The scenario is flawed - air suply and attrition. should not be considered for a tournament.
1943. Russians to powerful to make a real game as German.
Must be 1941.
I am interested as long as the rules are changed on the air supply issue but if it was 1941 the tournament could take a long time.
Perhaps something like the cricket tournament where all games being played are entered, (including existing games or with the new patch) and then rankings created.
I would suggest 3 points for a victory as German, 2 as Russian and one for a draw to be a good foundation for a ladder.

Scoring table according to my completed games so far:
Josan 3
Lorenzo 6
Me Nill.
But I will get better.

VictorH · Post by **VictorH** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 5:34 am

Just limit the tournament to a full campaign game rather than a scenario. Part of the fun for the Germans is the initial attack and then the Russians get their time in late 42.

jager506 · Post by **jager506** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:53 am

Just a suggestion. Perhaps we could have a "show of hands" as to how many of us would like to participate in such a tournament. I am keen of course.

heiks · Post by **heiks** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 11:21 am

Originally posted by jager506:
Just a suggestion. Perhaps we could have a "show of hands" as to how many of us would like to participate in such a tournament. I am keen of course.

A tournament would be most interesting.

For a shorter game I think the following "tournament" rules might work:

1) Play the normal -41 scenario, but stop at some point in the late -42 (first blizzard turn?), if neither side has won so far.

2) Game results would be calculated like this:
German: VPs for captured Soviet cities
Soviet 5 - German score.
(Five was the number of VPs required for the germans to win, correct?)

IMO these rules would nicely reflect the German need to achieve a quick, decisive victory.

Just a quick thought. Feel free to comment.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:04 pm

I would play the german attack and the soviet winter counteroffensive (june1941-march42).
Each general plays both sides. We can make
a level of victory that removed any draws.
The vp would be cities and losses. The squads, AFV ... losses must give Vp. For example, each 1000 squads of losses gives 1 VP...

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:53 am

Originally posted by Josan:
I would play the german attack and the soviet winter counteroffensive (june1941-march42).
Each general plays both sides. We can make
a level of victory that removed any draws.
The vp would be cities and losses. The squads, AFV ... losses must give Vp. For example, each 1000 squads of losses gives 1 VP...

How much VPs for city? Depends on it's population/reasources/oil? But it will change in time... also if city is heavely damaged by strategic bombing how will it's value will be count? Factories could be moved away or destroyed by enemy... And what about pribaltica cities(tallin,kaunas,riga,daugavpills) they are usually stay undefended, and become an easy prey, so perhaps VP(s) should be given for capturing all of them or ont given at all?

Hmm... noting but questions and grammatic mistakes

)

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 11:24 am

Originally posted by Alexey:

How much VPs for city?

Type Alt-O in the game, it'll tell you the victory cities.

Depends on it's population/reasources/oil?
But it will change in time... also if city is heavely damaged by strategic bombing how will it's value will be count? Factories could be moved away or destroyed by enemy...

No, the victory points remain unchanged for the entire campaign no matter what happens to the city.

And what about pribaltica cities(tallin,kaunas,riga,daugavpills) they are usually stay undefended, and become an easy prey, so perhaps VP(s) should be given for capturing all of them or ont given at all?

What does "pribaltica" mean?

If I understand what you are asking, then my answer is there aren't that many victory points in the game. Only 5 German cities have a VP amount, and the Soviet VPs are the far east cities plus Leningrad and Moscow. Most cities between Warsaw and Moscow/Leningrad do not have VPs assigned to them.

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 3:56 pm

Could you create a points system based on how far you progessed against the historical advance or what territory you still hold versus the historical version of events.

As Germans you gain bonus points for the caputre of Moscow and as the Soviets you may gain bonus points for holding Smolensk for a longer period.

This would allow constant point changes and more point updates to follow the WIR point board leaders. It would also allow a more flexible point structure.

Let me know what you think.

heiks · Post by **heiks** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 4:21 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Could you create a points system based on how far you progessed against the historical advance or what territory you still hold versus the historical version of events.

As Germans you gain bonus points for the caputre of Moscow and as the Soviets you may gain bonus points for holding Smolensk for a longer period.

This would allow constant point changes and more point updates to follow the WIR point board leaders. It would also allow a more flexible point structure.

Let me know what you think.

Interestin idea, but...

This would seem to be quite a complicated system. First of all it would require determining who historically controlled each hex each week throughout the length of the game. Although this would seem to be just a huge amount of fairly straightforward work even here there are a few issues that need to be considered:

1) How would the value of a hex be defined?
2) What about surrounded troops, such as russian armies in fall -41 and 6th army in Stalingrad. Does the are they control still count even though they have no contact with the rest of the forces?

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:22 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

What does "pribaltica" mean?

Baltic states of exUSSR

If I understand what you are asking, then my answer is there aren't that many victory points in the game. Only 5 German cities have a VP amount, and the Soviet VPs are the far east cities plus Leningrad and Moscow. Most cities between Warsaw and Moscow/Leningrad do not have VPs assigned to them.

I know that but the discussion was about tournament from summer 41 till winter 41 or till spring 42 and to that time it's almost imposibble to capture any objectives, so , as I believe, that's a little unfaire to count victory only by combat losses...

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 10:42 pm

Originally posted by Alexey:

I know that but the discussion was about tournament from summer 41 till winter 41 or till spring 42 and to that time it's almost imposibble to capture any objectives, so , as I believe, that's a little unfaire to count victory only by combat losses...

Its not impossible to capture Leningrad and Moscow in the 41 campaign versus a human player in v.3.0. I dont know if the new features of the new patch will make this possible but now there is a real possiblity.
If the german player manages to conquer both cities I think he would earn an automatic victory.

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:05 am

Originally posted by Josan:

Its not impossible to capture Leningrad and Moscow in the 41 campaign versus a human player in v.3.0. I dont know if the new features of the new patch will make this possible but now there is a real possiblity.
If the german player manages to conquer both cities I think he would earn an automatic victory.

Share this secret with me please

I've no idea how to do that, if only to be near Leningrad in August-October, but how the opponent will allow you that? Finns are almost useless: army containing 2 Tank Divisions, 2 Rifle Divisions, Anti-Tank and Artillery + couple NKVD Divisions from time to time, holds it's position in the north part of city... if only 'german' will transfer some forses to the Karelian Fin Army...

PS: How about to expand map little northern and try to 're play' attack on Murmansk?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:03 am

Originally posted by Alexey:
Share this secret with me please
I've no idea how to do that, if only to be near Leningrad in August-October, but how the opponent will allow you that? Finns are almost useless: army containing 2 Tank Divisions, 2 Rifle Divisions, Anti-Tank and Artillery + couple NKVD Divisions from time to time, holds it's position in the north part of city... if only 'german' will transfer some forses to the Karelian Fin Army...

PS: How about to expand map little northern and try to 're play' attack on Murmansk?

Leningrad is not too tough actually. If you can reach Lake Ladoga to the east of Leningrad in August, you just need to drive to the east farther to cut supply. Keeping panzers in the area makes it easy, unless the Soviets concentrate on defending the area, leaving Moscow weak at this early date.

Moscow should be a very tough nut to crack in 1941. The Axis cannot reach the city in supply until the end of September and I wouldn't think Lorenzo's method of sending panzer units striking into the rear would help as much here, with it being the nerve center of the Soviets. However, it depends on the overall situation and never say never, just say difficult.

The next release will change this and make it much more difficult for the Soviets to hold on, based on testing (my opinion), but that is what will have to be seen, especially with players of the quality of the group that is here now.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 4:33 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexey:
[QB]

Share this secret with me please

I've no idea how to do that, if only to be near Leningrad in August-October, but how the opponent will allow you that? Finns are almost useless: army containing 2 Tank Divisions, 2 Rifle Divisions, Anti-Tank and Artillery + couple NKVD Divisions from time to time, holds it's position in the north part of city... if only 'german' will transfer some forses to the Karelian Fin Army...

Ricky has exposed the "secret" perfectly. Any railhex east of the river leave Leningrad out of supply so is more difficult to defend.
Moscow is more toughness but if possible to conquer the city before blizzard arrives.

If you want we can make the campaign.

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:31 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Ok we will start a tournament when the new version comes out. Post your interest down below. Any suggestions on restrictions and rules.

Sorry, but I think this play is very good to play with friends, but not good to play a tournament: It́s too easy to cheat.
- The famous “save”, and “save”, and “save”, and in every turn you can fight with aircrafts, move units by railroad, supply... This way, you can take Moscow in first turn of 1941!
- I supouse, it́s possible general attack, and not to save it. This way, the player knows where the enemy is strong, where there is not air protection... And after, play the “right” turn.
- Sometimes, there are “strange” thinks: i.e, now Ím playing as Russian in 1942 campaign against Josan. I need rail points (as ever). And suddenly, I have 64.000 rail points! This was two time (I must recommence both turns) But, oh my god, 64000 rail points are the victory!

I think programers must solve this problems, because some people, when they want to win a tournament, sometimes do not good things. Of course, not all people. But only one, can destroy a tournament..

Suggestions about others rules:
must be solved the problems of West and Italian HQ. SS and GERMAN Pz divisions must be placed there; and must have GERMAN aircrafts too. Hungarians or Rumanians cańt go to Africa (I think yes in France, but only during 1942 and 1943. When Hungary or Rumanian in danger, they must go defend their countries.
Finns cańt exit of Finland, if Leningrad resist. Even after the Leningrad falls, by political considerations, fins mustńt go too mutch souts (but yes to east. Why not add Mursmank and Archangel to Finland, if they think Russian is defeated?)

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:36 pm

Why not 1941 to the death. 1941
German victory 7.
1942 German victory 5.
any German victory 4
1941 Russian Victory 7.
1942 Russian Victory 4.
1941 Russian Victory 3.
1942 Russian Victory 2.
The aim of less points for a Russian victory is that it is so much easier to win being Russian.
But this may change in new patch.

Matt

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:38 pm

Interesting point about the cheats but without honour it is impossible to play this game in any form - social or tournament.