Soviet Purges..Need some names and ratings..

[Muzrub]

Trying to put together a campaign based upon the Soviet purges of the 30's not taking place.....I need some Names and what you think they should be rated.....

eg Tukachevsky..Possible rating of 9?.


Please let me know, oh and which Soviet Generals to you want replaced?.


Thanks...

Muzrub........

[JustAGame]

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Trying to put together a campaign based upon the Soviet purges of the 30's not taking place.....I need some Names and what you think they should be rated.....

eg Tukachevsky..Possible rating of 9?.


Please let me know, oh and which Soviet Generals to you want replaced?.


Thanks...

Muzrub........

1. Trotsky
2. Zinoviev
3. Kamenev
4. Bukharin
5. Red Army leader and Deputy Commissar for War in 1924-25, Mikhail V. Frunze (1885-1925)
6. NKVD leader Genrikh G. Yagoda (1891-1938)
7. Marshal Mikhail N. Tukhachevsky
8. Army Commander General Yona E. Yakir
9. Army Commander I. P. Uborevich
10. 1st Deputy Commissar of Defense Yan Gamarnik
11. Corps Commander Eidemann
12. Corps Commander Vitovt Putna
13. Corps Commander Feldman
14. Corps Commander Primakov
15. Army Commander Kork
16. Marshal Alexander I.Yegorov (1885-1937)
17. Marshal Vasily K.Bluekher (sometimes spelled Blucher, 1889-1938
18. General Andrei V. Vlasov (1900-1946)
19. General Piotr N. Krasnov, leader of the Don Cossacks against the Bolsheviks in the Civil War. He emigrated to Germany and fought on the German side in World War II. He was captured by the Soviet army after the war and executed in 1947

[Mist]

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Trying to put together a campaign based upon the Soviet purges of the 30's not taking place.....I need some Names and what you think they should be rated.....

eg Tukachevsky..Possible rating of 9?.


Please let me know, oh and which Soviet Generals to you want replaced?.


Thanks...

Muzrub........

God knows how would Tukhachevski be good against German generals. For example, Pavlov was not as bad as Mechlis. Actualy he was much more professional. But confusion of first days of war combined with contraversal orders of Stalin and Western direction being attacked by two panzer groups of four resulted in such bad performance which is reflected as Pavlov's rating of 3.
I thing that you may set Tuchachevski rating to 6+. He was respected in German general staff for his modern views on mobile warfare.

[jager506]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JustAGame:

1. Trotsky
2. Zinoviev
3. Kamenev
4. Bukharin
5. Red Army leader and Deputy Commissar for War in 1924-25, Mikhail V. Frunze (1885-1925)
6. NKVD leader Genrikh G. Yagoda (1891-1938)
7. Marshal Mikhail N. Tukhachevsky
8. Army Commander General Yona E. Yakir
9. Army Commander I. P. Uborevich
10. 1st Deputy Commissar of Defense Yan Gamarnik
11. Corps Commander Eidemann
12. Corps Commander Vitovt Putna
13. Corps Commander Feldman
14. Corps Commander Primakov
15. Army Commander Kork
16. Marshal Alexander I.Yegorov (1885-1937)
17. Marshal Vasily K.Bluekher (sometimes spelled Blucher, 1889-1938
18. General Andrei V. Vlasov (1900-1946)
19. General Piotr N. Krasnov, leader of the Don Cossacks against the Bolsheviks in the Civil War. He emigrated to Germany and fought on the German side in World War II. He was captured by the Soviet army after the war and executed in 1947



Eidemann, Feldman and Blucher sound like ethnic Germans to me. Hmm... on a related note, after Barbarossa Stalin apparently rounded up ethnic Germans, some of which had been in Russia for many generations, and shipped them to Siberia.

Does anyone know whether the Germans tried to recruit/incorporate these ethnic Germans in the USSR into the Reich? I know they did for those in the Axis satellites - Hungary, Romania etc.

[Muzrub]

Does anyone know whether the Germans tried to recruit/incorporate these ethnic Germans in the USSR into the Reich? I know they did for those in the Axis satellites - Hungary, Romania etc.

The 12th Panzer Division had over 11,600 officers and men from all over Germany including Alsace and 681 Russians (Hiwis) auxiliaries recruited from either Russian prisoners though many were of German ethnic origin.

Based on that I would dare say many others of German extraction would have been recruited.


Eastern Volunteers 51* 10#
Turkish tribes in Russia 33* 11#
North Caucasians 13*
Volga Tartars 12* 1#
Cossacks 24* 1#
Armenians 8*
Azerbaijani 11*
Georgians 11* 2#
Estonians 4*
Finns 1*
Lithuanians 3* 6#
Far Easterners 1*
Greeks 1* 1#
Ukrainians - 2#
Russians - 2#
Latvians - 2#
Kalmucks 3*


*By 1943 the Germans had organized between 130,000 to 150,000 Eastern troops into 176 Battalions and 38 independent companies.

#By 1943 the Germangs etc etc, Labor, Guard or training units of company strength.

But with Hitlers view of the likes of Vlasov only being used as a propaganda tool and admitting that no promises were to be kept to Vlasov and other ex-Soviet Generals these forces were not put to the proper use.

Of course the treatment of Hiwis when captured was terrible. In '43 (Stalingrad) the NKVD were ordered to stop shooting them and bash them to death to save amuniton, but Stalin had a better idea, it was to work them to death. Why limit their suffering to short sharp moment, why not use them and work them to death.

[Muzrub]

Thanks JustAGame.

I'm not sure if all those names could be used, but I also need a rough idea of how to rate them.....

But these names are helpful....I was suprised to find out how hard it is to find a list of names on the net. I have some here at home in books, but here and on the net the purges are mainly mentioned in terms of figures.

[Mist]

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Thanks JustAGame.

I'm not sure if all those names could be used, but I also need a rough idea of how to rate them.....

But these names are helpful....I was suprised to find out how hard it is to find a list of names on the net. I have some here at home in books, but here and on the net the purges are mainly mentioned in terms of figures.

I doubt it is worth of effort to rate repressed commanders because none of them had real experience of mobile warfare.
I think that major factor of purges was lack of low level commanders which can be easily implemented as higher Soviet readiness and experience during first day of war.

[Muzrub]

I doubt it is worth of effort to rate repressed commanders because none of them had real experience of mobile warfare.
I think that major factor of purges was lack of low level commanders which can be easily implemented as higher Soviet readiness and experience during first day of war.

Let me get this right. Are you saying add a few commanders for the hell of it, but just increase readiness in order to reflect some of the battle experienced (Civil War- Spain) of the lesser divisional coammanders.
This would allow the Soviets a greater defence. With a scenario such as this you have to consider what the OKW and OKH thought of the purges so basically experience and readiness should be increased by about 20-30% ....maybe?.


Let me know what you think

[Mist]

Originally posted by Muzrub:



Let me get this right. Are you saying add a few commanders for the hell of it, but just increase readiness in order to reflect some of the battle experienced (Civil War- Spain) of the lesser divisional coammanders.
This would allow the Soviets a greater defence. With a scenario such as this you have to consider what the OKW and OKH thought of the purges so basically experience and readiness should be increased by about 20-30% ....maybe?.
Let me know what you think

you've got this right, Mighty Muzrub
My point is that just adding some more commanders of unknown rating will not make huge difference. Besides, I don't see the correct way to rate them for WWII conditions.
Even ratings of presented leaders are arguable sometimes. So, main idea is to increase initial experience and readiness of Soviet units. There were thousands of low level commanders executed during purges. I'd change initial readiness from 20 to 30-40 and experience from 20 to 40-50

[jager506]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muzrub:
[QB]

The 12th Panzer Division had over 11,600 officers and men from all over Germany including Alsace and 681 Russians (Hiwis) auxiliaries recruited from either Russian prisoners though many were of German ethnic origin.

Based on that I would dare say many others of German extraction would have been recruited.


Eastern Volunteers 51* 10#
Turkish tribes in Russia 33* 11#
North Caucasians 13*
Volga Tartars 12* 1#
Cossacks 24* 1#
Armenians 8*
Azerbaijani 11*
Georgians 11* 2#
Estonians 4*
Finns 1*
Lithuanians 3* 6#
Far Easterners 1*
Greeks 1* 1#
Ukrainians - 2#
Russians - 2#
Latvians - 2#
Kalmucks 3*



Thanks for info, Muz. But what do the stars and hexes signify and could I have the source for this if it's handy?

[Muzrub]

Thanks for info, Muz. But what do the stars and hexes signify and could I have the source for this if it's handy?


The Stars and hexes are just the key to the figures. Just check out the original post.

The Service: Memoirs of General Reinhard Gehlen.
Stalingrad: Antony Beevor.
Hitlers Greatest Defeat (The collapse of Army Group Centre, June 1944): Paul Adair.

[Muzrub]

Just used Ricky B sceneario and added a commander, I thought Tukachevsky should have a run and John lennon(just joking).

It gives the Germans a bit of a hard time in Panzer Losses, and about time to.

German:
958 sq
595 afv
207 g
121 air
Soviet:
3187 sq
770 afv
1167 g
1691 air.


Very few units shattered.
Imagine though that OP points for HQ's should be changed too.

[Possum]

Hello Muzrub
In case you where still after names....
I was just reading some history of Barbarossa, and I found an old composite photograph in it of the pre-purge Soviet high command.
It is on page 434, volume5, History of the Second World War, Orbis Pubishing.

The men in the photograph are
1) Army Commissar Fist Rank Garmarnik
2) Marshal Tukhachevsky (father of the Soviet army tank force)
3) Marshal Yegorov
4) General Hapepsky
5) Admiral Orlov
6) General Yakir
7) General Kamenev
8) Commissar Ordzhonikidze
9) Marshal Budenny
10) General Alksnis
11) Commissar Muklevitch
12) General Eideman
13) General Uborevich
note General Budenny was the sole survivor of the purges of this group.

[Grisha]

Budenny was an old 'buddy' of Stalin's. He was not in any danger during the purges, along with Mekhlis, Viroshilov, and Beria.

Also, why Zhukov has such a high rating in the game is mostly due to Western false perceptions. Vasilevsky was the best strategic commander of the STAVKA through the entire war. On the Front level the top commanders were Rokossovsky, Vatutin, Bagramyan, and Chernyovsky. If anything, Zhukov should have a respectable value, but not better than any of the Generals listed above. I suspect the only reason why Western authors give Zhukov such high marks is merely because he's one of the few Soviet Generals that had any extensive international exposure.

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Grisha ]</p>

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Grisha:
...
Also, why Zhukov has such a high rating in the game is mostly due to Western false perceptions. Vasilevsky was the best strategic commander of the STAVKA through the entire war. On the Front level the top commanders were Rokossovsky, Vatutin, Bagramyan, and Chernyovsky. If anything, Zhukov should have a respectable value, but not better than any of the Generals listed above. I suspect the only reason why Western authors give Zhukov such high marks is merely because he's one of the few Soviet Generals that had any extensive international exposure.

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Grisha ]

---

There are probably a variety of reasons for Zhukov's ratings, not all related to western perceptions. We had a discussion about this in our group and I wanted to make the top three generals all an 8 rating, but others wanted to keep Zhukov a 9. Zhukov was excellent on defense, but he didn't care much about losses on the attack (reminds me of General Grant in some ways - they both wanted to get the job done first anyway).

I work with a Russian who's father was a Soviet era general, and we have talked about Zhukov quite a bit. She says many Russians, including herself, still think extremely highly of him, so it is not just in the west.

[Grisha]

Originally posted by RickyB:

There are probably a variety of reasons for Zhukov's ratings, not all related to western perceptions. We had a discussion about this in our group and I wanted to make the top three generals all an 8 rating, but others wanted to keep Zhukov a 9. Zhukov was excellent on defense, but he didn't care much about losses on the attack (reminds me of General Grant in some ways - they both wanted to get the job done first anyway).

I work with a Russian who's father was a Soviet era general, and we have talked about Zhukov quite a bit. She says many Russians, including herself, still think extremely highly of him, so it is not just in the west.

---

Zhukov is a complex personage. In 1941, he was definitely needed, both for his knowledge of operational art, as well as his undying determination to never surrender. Also, he was a staunch member of the Party, which made him completely reliable in Stalin's eyes. For whatever reason, I believe Stalin had a 'soft spot' for Zhukov. Here was a man ready to stand by his word, to carry out orders, and all for country and Party. I think Stalin admired Zhukov's ability to stand up to him, something which definitely needed to be done in 1941 and 1942, since Stalin was near fanatical about attacking. Also, Zhukov was a capable General who had began his career under the tutelage of the great Soviet Generals of the thirties, and so knew intimately the theories that has been born then. But, Zhukov was not a great General, at least not when compared to the likes of Vasilevsky, or Rokossovsky, or Vatutin. Though he possessed a clear understanding of operational art, Zhukov was an impatient man, and a harshly demanding man. His impatience was a boon during his defensive operations in both Leningrad and Moscow in 1941, but it was a source of great loss during his offensive operations, both in 1939 at Khalkin Gol, as well as during Mars and later operations. He lacked a certain finesse in his planning that invariable resulted in predictable patterns. Whereas, Rokossovsky would withdraw and regroup for another maskirovka redeployment should an initial assault be repulsed by the Germans, Zhukov was wont to continue the assault until, a) the line was finally punched through, or b) there were no more Soviets to throw into the fray. Also, while Zhukov was immensely popular among the Soviet people, his badgering-ways left him not well liked among the officer corps.

But yes, Zhukov was practically adored by the Soviet public, and still is in Russia. He was unfairly demoted after the war, but that is most probably the case of 'as you sow, so shall you reap'. It is even claimed that within STAVKA circles Zhukov used Konev as a scapegoat for the Mars debacle. Still, I believe Zhukov was a man who knew talent, and did much to promote such talent in the Soviet officer corps during the war.

Personally, I think Zhukov was one of those few bigger-than-life characters that comes once in awhile. He was certainly a man with many stories to tell, but too little time for the telling. That he was not a top-notch General is acceptable, because when it counted most(1941) he did get the job done.

Where would I put Zhukov in the game? He would be better than Timoshenko, slightly inferior to Konev, and noticably inferior to Vasilevsky, Rokossovky, Vatutin, Bagramyan, and Chernyovsky.

Personally, I have always had a liking for Zhukov, but one must be truthful about his abilities as well.

[Grisha]

Double post. Apologies.

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Grisha ]</p>