You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.
Any particular Reasoning
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.
Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: Losqualo
ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.
Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?
Hmm-- there's only one way to find out. I didn't keep any of the older mech.exe files, so o4r, let us know if it works.
RE: Any particular Reasoning
o4r,
No, I am not joking. I have seen footage of Japanese, German, and American crews hoisting up a tripoded MG and dashing forward 50m, then dropping the gun down and firing again. It most certainly was done, and should be allowed in the game, especially in a turn that is "several minutes long".
To be clear : H2H does not allow movement with a HMG. Those are still either move or shoot, which I agree with. Only light and medium MG's may do so, and they do not have massive amounts of movement poits to spend. This now represents the short dashes by the crews. Very realistic, and the machinegunes are quite effective.
If you are going with 7.1, H2H is a good addition to it, especially for the needed boost in MG performance.
Goblin
No, I am not joking. I have seen footage of Japanese, German, and American crews hoisting up a tripoded MG and dashing forward 50m, then dropping the gun down and firing again. It most certainly was done, and should be allowed in the game, especially in a turn that is "several minutes long".
To be clear : H2H does not allow movement with a HMG. Those are still either move or shoot, which I agree with. Only light and medium MG's may do so, and they do not have massive amounts of movement poits to spend. This now represents the short dashes by the crews. Very realistic, and the machinegunes are quite effective.
If you are going with 7.1, H2H is a good addition to it, especially for the needed boost in MG performance.
Goblin
RE: Any particular Reasoning
I know it was only a movie but in Band of Brothers, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
-
Major Destruction
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RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: Losqualo
Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?
Yes
They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.
Julius Caesar, 57 BC
Julius Caesar, 57 BC
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Major Destruction
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RE: Any particular Reasoning
It is important to state the asumptions that you are making about the game.
How you interpret the model of an infantry squad moving across an open field?
Is the field flat? Like a billiard table?
Are the men standing upright? Or crouching? Or moving and finding cover, then moving again?
Do you model your squad, when moving slowly, to be walking upright?
Do you model your squad when moving quickly, to be jogging upright or taking quick spurts and then finding cover?
What happens when the machine gun fires?
In the game, you will notice that a MG will generally score casualties at a range of 6 hexes or so with the first shot almost every time. How many casualties do you score when you fire two three or four more shots?
What is the squad doing in your model while the MG is firing?
Are they continuing to stand upright?
Here is what I see in the game.
A squad moves one hex into my LOS. My MG does not opfire.
A second squad moves one hex into my LOS. My MG crew spots the second squad, momentarily losing sight of the first squad.
A third squad moves into LOS but my MG team is trying to find a bead on the first squad.
The first squad moves again and I shoot. I score one casualty and that squad goes to ground.
Now what do I do? Do I empty the belt on the first squad in the hope of hitting another man that I can not see?
No I'll now choose to concentrate on a different squad
and so on.
It might appear to be crazy to try to move across an open field into the teeth of a machine gun but it was done in WW2 often, probably every day, successfully by somebody, somewhere.
If 30 men are moving across the field, while the MG is shooting at one of them, it is not shooting at me and I am safe to move. If I do not move, some mean spirited sergeant will be kicking my backside and telling me to get moving. It then becomes a question of what do you fear more?
I believe the SPWAW v8.3 MG's are well modelled.
How you interpret the model of an infantry squad moving across an open field?
Is the field flat? Like a billiard table?
Are the men standing upright? Or crouching? Or moving and finding cover, then moving again?
Do you model your squad, when moving slowly, to be walking upright?
Do you model your squad when moving quickly, to be jogging upright or taking quick spurts and then finding cover?
What happens when the machine gun fires?
In the game, you will notice that a MG will generally score casualties at a range of 6 hexes or so with the first shot almost every time. How many casualties do you score when you fire two three or four more shots?
What is the squad doing in your model while the MG is firing?
Are they continuing to stand upright?
Here is what I see in the game.
A squad moves one hex into my LOS. My MG does not opfire.
A second squad moves one hex into my LOS. My MG crew spots the second squad, momentarily losing sight of the first squad.
A third squad moves into LOS but my MG team is trying to find a bead on the first squad.
The first squad moves again and I shoot. I score one casualty and that squad goes to ground.
Now what do I do? Do I empty the belt on the first squad in the hope of hitting another man that I can not see?
No I'll now choose to concentrate on a different squad
and so on.
It might appear to be crazy to try to move across an open field into the teeth of a machine gun but it was done in WW2 often, probably every day, successfully by somebody, somewhere.
If 30 men are moving across the field, while the MG is shooting at one of them, it is not shooting at me and I am safe to move. If I do not move, some mean spirited sergeant will be kicking my backside and telling me to get moving. It then becomes a question of what do you fear more?
I believe the SPWAW v8.3 MG's are well modelled.
They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.
Julius Caesar, 57 BC
Julius Caesar, 57 BC
RE: Any particular Reasoning
The Major and I are long time friends. We don't always see eye to eye, but I agree heartily with him here. I think they are well represented in version 8.3.
WB
WB
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
RE: Any particular Reasoning
I saw an interesting program on WW1. They did an experiment to test how dangerous a MG was, and how it caused so many casualties. They had 10 soldiers in MILES gear move across a hundred meters of mostly open ground (mainly deep grass) towards the gun (a WW1 MG).
The first time, they had to move like the WW1 soldiers did, in full packs, in line abreast. I think 1 or 2 guys made it to the cover of a sunken road (thier goal).
The second time, they had to carry full packs, but could run and zig zag the whole way. 3 or 4 made it across.
Next, they were allowed to shed their gear, and run full out in just their uniforms. I think 6 guys made it, IIRC.
Now, start them out 6 hexes away (300m), and imagine what would have happened. MG's are underpowered against infantry in the open in this game. I know it was done successfully in RL, but casualties would be higher than they are, and infantry damn sure did not want to do it, for good reason.
Goblin
The first time, they had to move like the WW1 soldiers did, in full packs, in line abreast. I think 1 or 2 guys made it to the cover of a sunken road (thier goal).
The second time, they had to carry full packs, but could run and zig zag the whole way. 3 or 4 made it across.
Next, they were allowed to shed their gear, and run full out in just their uniforms. I think 6 guys made it, IIRC.
Now, start them out 6 hexes away (300m), and imagine what would have happened. MG's are underpowered against infantry in the open in this game. I know it was done successfully in RL, but casualties would be higher than they are, and infantry damn sure did not want to do it, for good reason.
Goblin
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RockinHarry
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- Location: Germany
- Contact:
RE: Any particular Reasoning
Same old topic again, although Stuart and Goblin made some excellent points and examples! I oftenly muttered in the past about the ineffectiveness (lethality) of a 30cal MMG firing at the enemy and to be honest when designing scenarios, I crank their FC (fire control) up a little bit to achieve more "effect" on enemy infantry, in particular when the 30cal is set up for defense.[X(]
Generally the modelling of machine guns in SPWAW is quite sound if you consider the game mechanics (IGOUGO play system) and time/space involved. First of all, I switch unit icons size to smallest possible (=3) to remind myself that the hex you see filled with your digital grunts in reality is as good as empty! Even with with icon size set to 3 you still see the single trooper icons beeing 4x as large as they would be compared to real size. Hex scale is limited to 1pixel=1m, so a real scale soldier simply would not be bigger than a simple single pixel! Now visualize yourself 10 pixels (=10 men) distributed in the hex with certain state of development (german=Entwicklung) which could either be a singlr file, some sort of battle line or small 2-3 men teams spread around. An experienced infantry squad now most likely is spreading more within the 50m size hex, while low experience units troopers might bunch up around their NCO´s, making them better targets!
Now back to machine guns. SPWAW machine guns fire in burst and a burst is probably something like between 5-10 bullets per "shot" fired against those tiny 10 men (pixels) all spread in our 50m size hex. A high rate of fire MG like the MG42 certainly gets a few more bullets in shorter time towards the target than a "slow" ROF Maxim/Vickers, thus the difference of HE kill in the OOB. In general the final "effect" on the target is not that large as one would expect. But that depends on other circumstances too! As said unit experience (of target, as well as shooter) counts much, as well as the target is "assault moving" (=1 hex/turn) or "charging" (more than 1 hex/turn). Experienced units can "anticipate" shots and go to ground before effective fire might hit them. All that is actually modelled in the game, although with lots of abstraction. Goblins WW1 example I think shows quite well the differences between "assault moving" and "charging" the enemy lines.
Open (mixed) terrain in SPWAW. It ain´t. A 50m SPWAW open/mixed hex is full of spots where a squad of infantry can take cover,...when they´re quick enough. Here again comes unit (target) experience and movement speed into play again, but it also must be stressed that those 10 men in the target squad are still more or less widely spread (or not if inexperienced) within the target hex! Now a single HMG shooting at enemy infantry 1 hex away does not shoot its full firepower at a single big 10 men target, it rather needs to "sweep" its fire at 10 different single targets in about a 120° fire arc! If you really want those deadly "mow down" effects so oftenly reported from the eastern front to be seen in the game, then you need to increase the unit "density" in a hex considerably! If you take 10 men in a 50 meter size hex as a guideline, then to achieve the "human wave" effect in SPWAW, you need to have ~30-50 soldiers (~3-5 squads) in a single SPWAW hex! Now have that 3-5 squads all moving/charging toward a MG42 HMG (a situation that might occur mostly in an enemy half turn, since you can´t "group" move so many units at once and bunched up units in the enemy player half turn are still considered all moving!) and now watch your kill rate! Other effects that make a HMG more deadly is a possible height advantage ( +30m?).
If you also play latest version of SP2WW2 (V7.01) then you see that "open" terrain looks much more varied, giving a better imagination that a clear terrain hex is anything but a patch of grass on a golf course! An "open/mixed" hex has many folds, small depressions ect. where single men can take effectively cover from same level direct fire. (Hint: You can use SP2WW2 clear terrain graphics in SPWAW too! Just renaming of files is required.)
HMG units shoot and scoot: It´s forgotten with frequency that a single SPWAW game turn is made of 2 seperate player turns and that a full game turn is modelled to represent a time frame of between 2 to 5 minutes each. If you take a closer look, while you only can move your HMG in your half of the game turn, you can (OP fire) shoot the same HMG in the enemy half of the whole game turn. I imagine (as Wild Bill stated lately) that moving AND shooting a HMG all in the friendly half of the game turn is nothing but shooting a tripod "MG anything" from the hip! Welcome in Rambo land![:D]
I recommend to have some fun playing a 3D game like Combat Mission which gives great lessons to understand time and space issues on battlefields much better![:)]
Arty fire delays in SPWAW: same issue. Consider a full game turn to be abstracted 2 to 5 minutes and you´ll notice that a ROF of 0.1 in fact means between 12 and 30 seconds delay! That a full game turn is actually divided (time warp wise) into a friendly and enemy half can also be observed by the 0.4 Arty. delay example! A 0.4 delay fire for effect always starts in the enemy half of the full game turn (0.4 x game turn = between 48 to 120 seconds from start) When compared to Arty. fire delays in the Combat Mission game (which has a very high reputation for its realism and accuracy), I don´t see anything grossly off in the SPWAW game, the more as SPWAW uses a play system (IGOUGO) that requires a high level of abstraction to get to work. Also the game manual explains the issue on page 63 quite well.
General ROF ratings in SPWAW: Count friendly half turn and enemy half turn OP fire opportunities and you have the approximated real game turn ROF/Shots for a particular weapon! The game manual explains it as follows:
ROF - The maximum number of shots a unit can have in a turn. Based on experience
and movement it gets degraded.(game manual page 109)
Shots by units typically represent individual rounds or
small shot groups for tanks and artillery, and bursts of 5-10 rounds for small arms and automatic
heavy weapons. (game manual page2)
Note: I would be interested to know when "shot groups" apply to tanks or guns, rather than single shots!??[&:]
I have the impression that "shot groups" are rather used for indirekt artillery, while "single shots" count for direkt fire guns?! (except small arms and auto guns)
Remember that shots are the number of times that a unit can fire during its turn. This varies
according to unit type (big guns take longer to load), number of men in the unit (if an anti-tank gun
loses one or two of its crew members, then they are unable to load the gun as quickly), status of
the unit (pinned units get less shots), experience level of the crew and the leadership value of the
unit leader. Elite units can actually receive more shots than inexperienced units. You usually
receive at least one or two shots per turn unless the unit is in bad shape. (game manual page 61)
Note: When speaking of "turns", most likely a player "half turn" is actually meant!
Generally the modelling of machine guns in SPWAW is quite sound if you consider the game mechanics (IGOUGO play system) and time/space involved. First of all, I switch unit icons size to smallest possible (=3) to remind myself that the hex you see filled with your digital grunts in reality is as good as empty! Even with with icon size set to 3 you still see the single trooper icons beeing 4x as large as they would be compared to real size. Hex scale is limited to 1pixel=1m, so a real scale soldier simply would not be bigger than a simple single pixel! Now visualize yourself 10 pixels (=10 men) distributed in the hex with certain state of development (german=Entwicklung) which could either be a singlr file, some sort of battle line or small 2-3 men teams spread around. An experienced infantry squad now most likely is spreading more within the 50m size hex, while low experience units troopers might bunch up around their NCO´s, making them better targets!
Now back to machine guns. SPWAW machine guns fire in burst and a burst is probably something like between 5-10 bullets per "shot" fired against those tiny 10 men (pixels) all spread in our 50m size hex. A high rate of fire MG like the MG42 certainly gets a few more bullets in shorter time towards the target than a "slow" ROF Maxim/Vickers, thus the difference of HE kill in the OOB. In general the final "effect" on the target is not that large as one would expect. But that depends on other circumstances too! As said unit experience (of target, as well as shooter) counts much, as well as the target is "assault moving" (=1 hex/turn) or "charging" (more than 1 hex/turn). Experienced units can "anticipate" shots and go to ground before effective fire might hit them. All that is actually modelled in the game, although with lots of abstraction. Goblins WW1 example I think shows quite well the differences between "assault moving" and "charging" the enemy lines.
Open (mixed) terrain in SPWAW. It ain´t. A 50m SPWAW open/mixed hex is full of spots where a squad of infantry can take cover,...when they´re quick enough. Here again comes unit (target) experience and movement speed into play again, but it also must be stressed that those 10 men in the target squad are still more or less widely spread (or not if inexperienced) within the target hex! Now a single HMG shooting at enemy infantry 1 hex away does not shoot its full firepower at a single big 10 men target, it rather needs to "sweep" its fire at 10 different single targets in about a 120° fire arc! If you really want those deadly "mow down" effects so oftenly reported from the eastern front to be seen in the game, then you need to increase the unit "density" in a hex considerably! If you take 10 men in a 50 meter size hex as a guideline, then to achieve the "human wave" effect in SPWAW, you need to have ~30-50 soldiers (~3-5 squads) in a single SPWAW hex! Now have that 3-5 squads all moving/charging toward a MG42 HMG (a situation that might occur mostly in an enemy half turn, since you can´t "group" move so many units at once and bunched up units in the enemy player half turn are still considered all moving!) and now watch your kill rate! Other effects that make a HMG more deadly is a possible height advantage ( +30m?).
If you also play latest version of SP2WW2 (V7.01) then you see that "open" terrain looks much more varied, giving a better imagination that a clear terrain hex is anything but a patch of grass on a golf course! An "open/mixed" hex has many folds, small depressions ect. where single men can take effectively cover from same level direct fire. (Hint: You can use SP2WW2 clear terrain graphics in SPWAW too! Just renaming of files is required.)
HMG units shoot and scoot: It´s forgotten with frequency that a single SPWAW game turn is made of 2 seperate player turns and that a full game turn is modelled to represent a time frame of between 2 to 5 minutes each. If you take a closer look, while you only can move your HMG in your half of the game turn, you can (OP fire) shoot the same HMG in the enemy half of the whole game turn. I imagine (as Wild Bill stated lately) that moving AND shooting a HMG all in the friendly half of the game turn is nothing but shooting a tripod "MG anything" from the hip! Welcome in Rambo land![:D]
I recommend to have some fun playing a 3D game like Combat Mission which gives great lessons to understand time and space issues on battlefields much better![:)]
Arty fire delays in SPWAW: same issue. Consider a full game turn to be abstracted 2 to 5 minutes and you´ll notice that a ROF of 0.1 in fact means between 12 and 30 seconds delay! That a full game turn is actually divided (time warp wise) into a friendly and enemy half can also be observed by the 0.4 Arty. delay example! A 0.4 delay fire for effect always starts in the enemy half of the full game turn (0.4 x game turn = between 48 to 120 seconds from start) When compared to Arty. fire delays in the Combat Mission game (which has a very high reputation for its realism and accuracy), I don´t see anything grossly off in the SPWAW game, the more as SPWAW uses a play system (IGOUGO) that requires a high level of abstraction to get to work. Also the game manual explains the issue on page 63 quite well.
General ROF ratings in SPWAW: Count friendly half turn and enemy half turn OP fire opportunities and you have the approximated real game turn ROF/Shots for a particular weapon! The game manual explains it as follows:
ROF - The maximum number of shots a unit can have in a turn. Based on experience
and movement it gets degraded.(game manual page 109)
Shots by units typically represent individual rounds or
small shot groups for tanks and artillery, and bursts of 5-10 rounds for small arms and automatic
heavy weapons. (game manual page2)
Note: I would be interested to know when "shot groups" apply to tanks or guns, rather than single shots!??[&:]
I have the impression that "shot groups" are rather used for indirekt artillery, while "single shots" count for direkt fire guns?! (except small arms and auto guns)
Remember that shots are the number of times that a unit can fire during its turn. This varies
according to unit type (big guns take longer to load), number of men in the unit (if an anti-tank gun
loses one or two of its crew members, then they are unable to load the gun as quickly), status of
the unit (pinned units get less shots), experience level of the crew and the leadership value of the
unit leader. Elite units can actually receive more shots than inexperienced units. You usually
receive at least one or two shots per turn unless the unit is in bad shape. (game manual page 61)
Note: When speaking of "turns", most likely a player "half turn" is actually meant!
-
RockinHarry
- Posts: 2344
- Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: Losqualo
ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.
Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?
The unit selection routines in the mech.exe that pull AI formations weren´t changed for V8.xx
It was the formation slots contents that were "optimized" or how ever you would call it.
For finding out about the AI picklists I recommend the following reading from Stuart Trounsons StukobHack Readme file:
Test AI Purchase was something I threw together to find out just which formation slots the AI was using to avoid wiping them. Basically names the 249 units Unit1 to Unit249 and ties the first 199 to the respective formations => Unit1 - Formation1 etc. Using this and Fred Chlanda's WaWED it's easy to find out what formations are being used, although it's time consuming to work through all the different iterations (with air support/without, attack/defend/meeting etc, different years). Using the battle generator, let the AI buy the forces for the side you want to check out, then save and load up in WaWED. Using the battle summary option in WaWED will provide you with the info you need, though SP:WaW is streets ahead of SP3 in terms of variation, and it may take several goes with the same settings to get all the formations that can be selected.
Have fun finding out[;)]
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RockinHarry
- Posts: 2344
- Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: Alby
I know it was only a movie but in Saving pvt Ryan, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
Hey Alby! I had answered this at another place at another time already! You were probably reading a Geddy Lee article that time? (Geddy still kicks ass!)[&o]
In the OOB editor you see the "true" unit classes and that is what counts when understanding how Panzer Leo´s H2H OOBs work! Now in example to make a "MG34 (Laf) Grp" show up as "Medium MG" (does NOT exist, it´s still "Pack mule" class!!!) he opened the mech.exe with a "Hex editor" and changed some ASCII text stuff. That simple! For same reasons there´s no "Pack Mule" in H2H showing up anymore (it´s now renamed "team"). Panzer Leo simply renamed (without changing functionality) them "Mule". However, if you open the OOBs in the Editor you always see the true unit class names and you understand! Panzer Leo did a great job "faking" units! LOL [:D]
The side effect of making "pack mule" class MMG/HMG that can shoot and scoot, is that they´re a little scared off any enemy armor around! So in the H2H mod, if you encounter enemy HMG units, don´t waste ammo, as they´ll run as soon as they see you sitting in your sports car! The pack animal HMG´s also don´t apply for any height advanatge fire effect and the lethality you notice is mainly caused by cranked up "HE kill" ratings and maybe the change from "team weapon" to "secondary infantry" weapon class.(Stuart will correct me if I´m wrong here!)
Same goes for the (faked) "Mule" class pack animals in H2H mod. They´re now "Team" unit class and these won´t run from enemy armor, at least not from medium to long range. Close range "tank panic" is explained in the manual page 19.
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Alby
I know it was only a movie but in Saving pvt Ryan, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
Hey Alby! I had answered this at another place at another time already! You were probably reading a Geddy Lee article that time? (Geddy still kicks ass!)[&o]
In the OOB editor you see the "true" unit classes and that is what counts when understanding how Panzer Leo´s H2H OOBs work! Now in example to make a "MG34 (Laf) Grp" show up as "Medium MG" (does NOT exist, it´s still "Pack mule" class!!!) he opened the mech.exe with a "Hex editor" and changed some ASCII text stuff. That simple! For same reasons there´s no "Pack Mule" in H2H showing up anymore (it´s now renamed "team"). Panzer Leo simply renamed (without changing functionality) them "Mule". However, if you open the OOBs in the Editor you always see the true unit class names and you understand! Panzer Leo did a great job "faking" units! LOL [:D]
The side effect of making "pack mule" class MMG/HMG that can shoot and scoot, is that they´re a little scared off any enemy armor around! So in the H2H mod, if you encounter enemy HMG units, don´t waste ammo, as they´ll run as soon as they see you sitting in your sports car! The pack animal HMG´s also don´t apply for any height advanatge fire effect and the lethality you notice is mainly caused by cranked up "HE kill" ratings and maybe the change from "team weapon" to "secondary infantry" weapon class.(Stuart will correct me if I´m wrong here!)
Same goes for the (faked) "Mule" class pack animals in H2H mod. They´re now "Team" unit class and these won´t run from enemy armor, at least not from medium to long range. Close range "tank panic" is explained in the manual page 19.
Geddy Lee LOL[:D]
I have never used a hex editor...i downloaded one and it made no sense to me!!
I didnt even know where to start.
Just a dumb ole Bass player here!!
Thanks for the info tho!!!
Alby
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Alby
I know it was only a movie but in Saving pvt Ryan, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
Hey Alby! I had answered this at another place at another time already! You were probably reading a Geddy Lee article that time? (Geddy still kicks ass!)[&o]
In the OOB editor you see the "true" unit classes and that is what counts when understanding how Panzer Leo´s H2H OOBs work! Now in example to make a "MG34 (Laf) Grp" show up as "Medium MG" (does NOT exist, it´s still "Pack mule" class!!!) he opened the mech.exe with a "Hex editor" and changed some ASCII text stuff. That simple! For same reasons there´s no "Pack Mule" in H2H showing up anymore (it´s now renamed "team"). Panzer Leo simply renamed (without changing functionality) them "Mule". However, if you open the OOBs in the Editor you always see the true unit class names and you understand! Panzer Leo did a great job "faking" units! LOL [:D]
The side effect of making "pack mule" class MMG/HMG that can shoot and scoot, is that they´re a little scared off any enemy armor around! So in the H2H mod, if you encounter enemy HMG units, don´t waste ammo, as they´ll run as soon as they see you sitting in your sports car! The pack animal HMG´s also don´t apply for any height advanatge fire effect and the lethality you notice is mainly caused by cranked up "HE kill" ratings and maybe the change from "team weapon" to "secondary infantry" weapon class.(Stuart will correct me if I´m wrong here!)
Same goes for the (faked) "Mule" class pack animals in H2H mod. They´re now "Team" unit class and these won´t run from enemy armor, at least not from medium to long range. Close range "tank panic" is explained in the manual page 19.
Thanks RH! That explains why they won't load onto a tank? Thats annoying, but you can work around it.
Goblin
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RockinHarry
- Posts: 2344
- Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: Goblin
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Alby
I know it was only a movie but in Saving pvt Ryan, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
Hey Alby! I had answered this at another place at another time already! You were probably reading a Geddy Lee article that time? (Geddy still kicks ass!)[&o]
In the OOB editor you see the "true" unit classes and that is what counts when understanding how Panzer Leo´s H2H OOBs work! Now in example to make a "MG34 (Laf) Grp" show up as "Medium MG" (does NOT exist, it´s still "Pack mule" class!!!) he opened the mech.exe with a "Hex editor" and changed some ASCII text stuff. That simple! For same reasons there´s no "Pack Mule" in H2H showing up anymore (it´s now renamed "team"). Panzer Leo simply renamed (without changing functionality) them "Mule". However, if you open the OOBs in the Editor you always see the true unit class names and you understand! Panzer Leo did a great job "faking" units! LOL [:D]
The side effect of making "pack mule" class MMG/HMG that can shoot and scoot, is that they´re a little scared off any enemy armor around! So in the H2H mod, if you encounter enemy HMG units, don´t waste ammo, as they´ll run as soon as they see you sitting in your sports car! The pack animal HMG´s also don´t apply for any height advanatge fire effect and the lethality you notice is mainly caused by cranked up "HE kill" ratings and maybe the change from "team weapon" to "secondary infantry" weapon class.(Stuart will correct me if I´m wrong here!)
Same goes for the (faked) "Mule" class pack animals in H2H mod. They´re now "Team" unit class and these won´t run from enemy armor, at least not from medium to long range. Close range "tank panic" is explained in the manual page 19.
Thanks RH! That explains why they won't load onto a tank? Thats annoying, but you can work around it.
Goblin
Yes, mules are not to be loaded onto anything else! I think it can be worked around (in H2H mod) by simply taking any of the infantry class units (scouts ect.) and assign the MMG in slot1. Basically that´s what Panzer Leo made anyway with the disguised pack mules.[:D]...I think you rather mean loading a "loadable" unit first and then replace it while loaded with "R" key function in the editor with something non-loadable?..a little bit cumbersome, but it works.
-
RockinHarry
- Posts: 2344
- Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: Alby
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Alby
I know it was only a movie but in Saving pvt Ryan, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine
Hey Alby! I had answered this at another place at another time already! You were probably reading a Geddy Lee article that time? (Geddy still kicks ass!)[&o]
In the OOB editor you see the "true" unit classes and that is what counts when understanding how Panzer Leo´s H2H OOBs work! Now in example to make a "MG34 (Laf) Grp" show up as "Medium MG" (does NOT exist, it´s still "Pack mule" class!!!) he opened the mech.exe with a "Hex editor" and changed some ASCII text stuff. That simple! For same reasons there´s no "Pack Mule" in H2H showing up anymore (it´s now renamed "team"). Panzer Leo simply renamed (without changing functionality) them "Mule". However, if you open the OOBs in the Editor you always see the true unit class names and you understand! Panzer Leo did a great job "faking" units! LOL [:D]
The side effect of making "pack mule" class MMG/HMG that can shoot and scoot, is that they´re a little scared off any enemy armor around! So in the H2H mod, if you encounter enemy HMG units, don´t waste ammo, as they´ll run as soon as they see you sitting in your sports car! The pack animal HMG´s also don´t apply for any height advanatge fire effect and the lethality you notice is mainly caused by cranked up "HE kill" ratings and maybe the change from "team weapon" to "secondary infantry" weapon class.(Stuart will correct me if I´m wrong here!)
Same goes for the (faked) "Mule" class pack animals in H2H mod. They´re now "Team" unit class and these won´t run from enemy armor, at least not from medium to long range. Close range "tank panic" is explained in the manual page 19.
Geddy Lee LOL[:D]
I have never used a hex editor...i downloaded one and it made no sense to me!!
I didnt even know where to start.
Just a dumb ole Bass player here!!
Thanks for the info tho!!!
Alby
What´s you bass player faves btw?[8D]
RE: Any particular Reasoning
Dont really have any fovorites
Geddy is of course very good, as is the guy from red hot chili peppers.
Jason Nusted formerly of metallica I like
Paul Mccartney...
Geez I dont know...
ME!! LOL
[:D]
Geddy is of course very good, as is the guy from red hot chili peppers.
Jason Nusted formerly of metallica I like
Paul Mccartney...
Geez I dont know...
ME!! LOL
[:D]
RE: Any particular Reasoning
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Goblin
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Hey Alby! I had answered this at another place at another time already! You were probably reading a Geddy Lee article that time? (Geddy still kicks ass!)[&o]
In the OOB editor you see the "true" unit classes and that is what counts when understanding how Panzer Leo´s H2H OOBs work! Now in example to make a "MG34 (Laf) Grp" show up as "Medium MG" (does NOT exist, it´s still "Pack mule" class!!!) he opened the mech.exe with a "Hex editor" and changed some ASCII text stuff. That simple! For same reasons there´s no "Pack Mule" in H2H showing up anymore (it´s now renamed "team"). Panzer Leo simply renamed (without changing functionality) them "Mule". However, if you open the OOBs in the Editor you always see the true unit class names and you understand! Panzer Leo did a great job "faking" units! LOL [:D]
The side effect of making "pack mule" class MMG/HMG that can shoot and scoot, is that they´re a little scared off any enemy armor around! So in the H2H mod, if you encounter enemy HMG units, don´t waste ammo, as they´ll run as soon as they see you sitting in your sports car! The pack animal HMG´s also don´t apply for any height advanatge fire effect and the lethality you notice is mainly caused by cranked up "HE kill" ratings and maybe the change from "team weapon" to "secondary infantry" weapon class.(Stuart will correct me if I´m wrong here!)
Same goes for the (faked) "Mule" class pack animals in H2H mod. They´re now "Team" unit class and these won´t run from enemy armor, at least not from medium to long range. Close range "tank panic" is explained in the manual page 19.
Thanks RH! That explains why they won't load onto a tank? Thats annoying, but you can work around it.
Goblin
Yes, mules are not to be loaded onto anything else! I think it can be worked around (in H2H mod) by simply taking any of the infantry class units (scouts ect.) and assign the MMG in slot1. Basically that´s what Panzer Leo made anyway with the disguised pack mules.[:D]...I think you rather mean loading a "loadable" unit first and then replace it while loaded with "R" key function in the editor with something non-loadable?..a little bit cumbersome, but it works.
Lol, no, I meant walking them to the fight. A Goblin is not that complicated.[;)]
Goblin
Shermans in -43
Is there any particular reason why Italian and french are able ...
... why French can drive with Sherman M4s in autumn of -43, but Brittons have only M3s?
salute
mosh
If its not rotten, shoot again
mosh
If its not rotten, shoot again