Chinese Air Force

[Don Bowen]

Spurred on by several posts in this Forum, I've been doing a little research on Chinese squadrons. It is now obvious that we paid too little attention to the Chinese Air Force in the Combined Historical Scenario - probably because we did not have an expert in that area. I'm going to try and re-work the Chinese Air OOB but it will be a lower priority task as I already have a number of items in process.

The number of Chinese squadrons deployed is smaller in CHS but the maximum aircraft complement per squadron is far greater. A Chinese fighter squadron had only 9 aircraft, a group of 4 squadrons plus an HQ section totaled 40. In WITP these squadrons are set at 24 aircraft. There are also a number of additional aircraft types that might be included - all of which are already in the aircraft database:

• CW-21 Fighter: China had 24 of these (or 32??) - all lost when an assembly facility was overrun in early 1942
• A-29 Bomber: U.S. designation for the Hudson, 26 aircraft
• Hawk 75: Somewhere around 100 of these were ordered pre-war but they may have all been destroyed by 12/41
• P-66 Vanguard: Approximately 128 of these - we already have artwork and are in the process of adding to the scenario.

Open items to be decided after more reading are:

• Unit Size: should we use Squadrons (9), Groups (40) or "Generalized" Squadrons (maybe 18)
• Aircraft type and Upgrade path per air unit - many of the Chinese Units had composite airgroups
• Initial locations of units and formation dates of units
• Pilot quality

I have found or been referred to a number of excellent data sources online:

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm - EXCELLENT - see the tables at the end of each "year"

http://world.std.com/~Ted7/minorafp.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/avg.htm - has a number of articles on the Chinese Air Force.

I would greatly appreciate any additional information and advice, as this is well outside my area of expertise.

Don

[TheElf]

I am in favor of using Squadrons. Often times Chinese groups consisted of several different types of aircraft. having 4 different sqdns each with potentially different A/C types would best emulate the patchwork nature of a CAF Group. This would give players flexibility to manage the limited A/C support available to the CAF.

Additionally CAF Base Forces are structured to support the typical 30 A/C. One of two things are possible.

1. leave them set to 30 and further simulate the lack of proper maintenance practices and know how.

2. Set them to 40 A/C Support, effectively 1 group/Base Force. Attrition and lack of supply in China may be enough to cause the disrepair that was common in CAF units

[jcjordan]

Don if you look back aways into the original CHS threads it's under one of them but can't remember which one (general or air units), I posted what I came up with in my research mostly from the website you list but some other links as well just by surfing as well as my solution to the FS/FG, see what you think.

Well here's my original post -

Well the Chinese in the current matrix game is underrepresented in number but overrated in experience to me. I think that the Chinese should have a starting experience of 35-40 not 45 as in the game but increase the rate slightly. As to units it can be done one of 2 ways, if done by squadron alot of Chinese airbase units should be added but if done by group only a small increase in each airbase air support would work if needed at all. My suggestion would be to do by group & limit the max a/c in each group to a lower number than would normally be in a US group to simulate the state of repair the Chinese could maintain, that coupled with the lower exp would probably come closer to what the Chinese were. At the start of the game China was moving from Soviet a/c to US lendlease a/c. This OOB is close to what would have been the CAF in early 42 so there may be other late war units that would appear but not likely as US units would have been supplanting them. I suggest BG= 24, FG=36 or BS=12 & FS=16.

1 BG - 1 & 2BS- both SB3 to B25C
2 BG - 9BS (Veng), 11(SB3), 14(Mart139) all upgrade B25C
3 PG - 7&8FS (I15/16 to P66 to P40), 28&32FS (Hawk75 to P40)
4 PG - 21,22,23,24FS (I16 to P43 to P40)
5 PG - 17,26,29FS (Hawk75 to P40)
11PG - 41,42,43,44FS (I15 to P66 to P40)
12BG - 45,46,47BS (SB3 to B25C)
14BS - Mart B10 to B25C was part of 8 BG but other unit in group was disbanded just as war started due to spare parts shortage.
27FS - I16 to P40
30BS - SB3 to B25C

The 4PG should upgrade to P43 in Mar42 then to P40N late war. The 3PG should upgrade to P66 in Jun42 then P40 late war also, the 11PG should upgrade to P66 sometime after the 4PG.

[Don Bowen]

I'm in the middle of research on this but have found several interesting things:

The Hawk 75As were almost all wiped out in 1940, only an odd aircraft surviving.

A few CW-21s were completed in China but I'm leaning (strongly) to leaving them out. Problem is the Dutch units in Java will suck the pools dry and attempting to have a squadron arrive in 5/42 with CW-21s will therefore fail.

Looks like all the Martin-139s (either 6 aircraft or 9 aircraft total) were lost early in the Sino-Japanese war. 30th Squadron, which flew them, re-equipped with A-29 in 1941.

Just under 30 A-29 reached China but no less than 4 squadrons flew them(?!?!). 9th and 30th were equipped with them prior to 12/41 (and we just might limit it to them).

Some of the original Scenario 15 Chinese Squadrons look wrong. 7th Squadron appears to have been pure fighter and never a bomber unit. 11th Squadron was the other way around - a bomber unit and not fighter. Having trouble supporting the 3rd and 5th Bomb Squadrons and the 25th and 27th Fighter Squadrons. I'm still confused about the 19th Squadron - fighter in Scenario 15 but bomber equipped in 1938 and 1939, no references after that - still looking. Any input from someone that worked on the original OOB would be wonderful!

Some squadrons had been disbanded (plus others previously disbanded were re-banded to receive P-66) and some flew bits and pieces of obsolete equipment that are not worth including. Some, like 41 thru 44, equipped but never fought.

It appears that the standard complement was 9 aircraft per squadron and I'm looking at between twenty-four and twenty-eight squadrons that might be included. I'm seen some references to squadrons going into combat with 12-14 aircraft and also to the four-squadron groups having two operational and two training squadrons. I'm considering increasing the complement to 12 and dropping a few marginal squadrons.

Appreciate your input and would welcome more.

Don

[bstarr]

Try these sites =

http://www.sinoam.com/home.htm

The part about CNAC (Chinese National Aviation Corps) is interesting. The hard stats aren't there, but the writeup is good. Apparently it's a Chinese C-47 unit manned by americans early in the war. You may know this, but it was new to me. It's not an american unit. There's another pic somewhere in this site of a C-46 with a chinese insignia, but the pics of CNAC have their own insignia, different from both US and Chinese.

Also check out

http://eaw.wz.cz/

Mostly pre-41 stuff here, but if some of these old planes end up in the mod the pics are good.

[Don Bowen]

These seem to be the best sources additional sources that I can find on the web. A bit hard to read but very, very interesting.

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese-1941.htm
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/otherres.htm

[AmiralLaurent]

They were not especially Chinese units but there were a lot of civilian or semi-civilian transport planes in China in 1942. All these civilian lines were used to ferry military supplies and people of course. CNAC was there but also other airlines based in Hong Kong (where they were mostly destroyed on the ground on the first day of the war).

There was also a small Walrus and Vildebeest unit in Hong Kong.

[Ron Saueracker]

I don't know about you guys but I'm finding the Chinese OOB more and more interesting over time.

[treespider]

Somewhere in my life i acqiuired a fascinating book deatiling the Sino-Japanese War prepared by the Nationalist chinese Govt. sometime after the war....Here is what it has to offer reference the chinese Air Force....

"...Since the reorginization and training in 1939, the combat units of the chinese Air force included 7 groups, 1 seperate squadron and 4 volunteer groups, totalling 135 aircraft. After replenishment, the number was increased to 215. there were one district HQ and 3 route HQ. By 1940, other than the 1st District HQwhich was renamed 4th route HQ, the original 1st, 2nd and 3rd Route HQ still retained their original designations. of the combat units, the 7 groups were kept but the Russian Volunteer group was de-activated. There were a total of 160 pursuit planes to support ground operations, protect the nations wartime capital and key air base and cover international lines of communications. continued combat attrition reduced the number of aircraft to 65. In early 1941, Soviet russia provided 100 bombers and 148 pursuit planes. However the performance of the Russian pursuit planes was vastly inferior to the enemy's Zero fighters...."

more to follow in a few minutes

[treespider]

"...In April [1941], the Air command was activated to be responsible for opertaions and training. In may, the 5th Route HQ was organized in Kun-ming. In June 100 P-40 pursuit planes were purchased from the United States. Later, with the formation of the AVG our combat units still stood at 7 groups (the 11th and 12th groups and one seperate squadron which had undergone training for the whole year were not included) By the end of the year, there was a total of 364 planes of various types of which 100 P-40's were turned over to the AVG. Since march, 1942 US replacement aircraft gradually arrived. personnel from various combat units were pulled and sent to the United States and Karachi, India to receive training and new aircraft. After July when training was completed, these personnel flew back to china. By the end of 1942, 19 A-29 bombers, 27 P-40 pursuit planes, 41 P-43 Pursuit planes, 82 P-66 pursuit planes were received...."

still more to follow....

[treespider]

This may be easier...

[treespider]

pages 510 through 518 go on to detail various phases / battles of the Chinese theater and the contributions of the "glorious" Chinese air force...

[Don Bowen]

Very interesting - Thanks. I do wish it gave more squadron-level/aircraft complement data.

Don

[treespider]

In the preface to the book it states that this particular volume is the "Concise History", condensed from a 100 volume treatsie on the subject which i imagine can be found in a library somewhere in Taiwan albeit probably not translated into English. If you would like I could provide you with
copies of the following pages...

[treespider]

I also found this....I imagine it would have all of the info you are looking for...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0313320047/102-9701792-8098561?v=glance

[Don Bowen]

Here is what I've been able to find on the Chinese air force. My sources are limited to the web as books are few and expensive. All of this is preliminary and comments/additional information appreciated.

Squadron size: I've seen several references to 9-plane squadrons and 40-plane groups (4 squadrons plus HQ Flight). I've also seen references of squadrons taking 12-14 aircraft into combat (one reference went up to 18). Also, when upgrading to P-40, one fighter group received 68 aircraft (it is not clear if they were all for that group, included spares, etc). In Scenario 15, Chinese Fighter Squadrons are set at 24 aircraft and Bomber Squadrons at 16. I'm leaning toward setting all squadrons to 12 aircraft. This would compensate for HQ aircraft and other variances and give a more-useful squadron. Deployment will be in squadrons.

Aircraft: The A-29 light bomber (Hudson) has been added to the aircraft available at the beginning of the war. We've already added the P-43 as an early war upgrade and will add the P-66 in the next revision. The upgrade path of all Chinese aircraft will continue to lead to P-40N and B-25J. Other early aircraft were all (or almost all) expended and will not be included: Martin-139, Hawk-75, U.S., British, French, and Italian biplanes. Also the 35 CW-21 will be omitted as few were assembled, none actually saw service, and they would create pool problems with the Dutch NEIAF.

Units. The data points to 15 Fighter and 6 Bomber squadrons at war's beginning and an additional 4 Fighter Squadrons added in 1942. This compares to 5 fighter (24 aircraft max) and 5 bomber (16 aircraft max) in scenario 15. The initial size of the 21 squadrons would be set as accurately as possible, with all having a maximum of 12 aircraft. This represents about a 50% increase in maximum fighters and a slight decrease in bombers. The exclusion of some fighter squadrons may be worth considering: 19th?, 29th?, all four of the 11th Group??

[treespider]

I just checked and the book to which I referenced earlier...War Wings by XU Guangqiu is available at our local University Library - Tennessee. My wife happens to be a graduate student at the university. If you have time I will ask her to get the book for me and check what it has to offer. I read a review of it, I believe from a 2002 issue of Air & Space Power journal which indicated that the book detailed much of the Chinese purchases of aircraft...

"Written chronologically, in clear and concise sentences, War Wings details the equipment and types of aircraft sold to China between 1929 and 1949 but does not descend into monotony. The strength of the book, however, lies in its description of Chinese domestic politics and the role that individual Americans played in this 20-year period—witness the interesting account of Jimmy Doolittle and Claire Chennault assisting China in its campaign against Imperial Japan. Some of the tactics employed by these two men in China were later adopted by the United States during World War II. In many respects, China became a laboratory for their ideas about the effective employment of airpower."

[Ron Saueracker]

This is looking great.

[pad152]

Well historical or not the allies in CHS already start with too many aircraft.[X(] The AI Japan playing CHS won't last 6 months and nobody will want to play PBM Japan!

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Well historical or not the allies in CHS already start with too many aircraft.[X(] The AI Japan playing CHS won't last 6 months and nobody will want to play PBM Japan!

Need some house rules regarding minimum force levels in each Command Zone.