? Russia & Spain

[Traveler]

If the AI is controling Russia: Will Russia always end up attacking Germany? I've played other games in the past, and it always happens, which IRL was a very unlikey senario.

Is Spain playable?

[Joel Billings]

You cannot play Spain, but you can attack it. Russia will attack Germany by 1943 if not yet attacked (or freed up to attack earlier for other reasons), so yes, Russia will always end up on the Allied side fighting against Germany.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Traveler

If the AI is controling Russia: Will Russia always end up attacking Germany?... always happens, which IRL was a very unlikey scenario.

I think in terms of geopolitics the default war declaration rules are fine and the scenario very likely. Here we'd have the Allies under pressure on one front, a meglomaniac in terms of Stalin not wanting to stay out of the action in terms of the lesser lights in his mind - Mussolini and Hitler, the promise of riches via Lend Lease and economic subsidization - plus Mein Kampf which kinda hinted that the Soviet Union - the Leibensraum - would always "be next".

A silent Stalin facing a hungry Germany - or a weakened Germany but a massively powerful US - that would be unlikely.

Remember too, that Poland in the 1940's was viewed in the East as a pariah - an artificial manifestation of Versailles - geography that rightly belonged to Mother Russia as much as the Fatherland.

Adam.

[Traveler]

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Stalin might have wanted to invade; but with out the galvanizing effect of the botched German invasion, there is no way Russia would have been in a practical position to invade Germany.

[forager]

actually, the russians were also using the treaty as a ruse to prepare to invade germany. hitler and stalin saw each other for what they truly were. sneaks! just look at the opening days of the german invasion. the germans smashed numerous divisions in the first months of the invasion as well as destroyed large numbers of aircraft on ther ground. german invasion or not the russians were coming to germany eventually. whether the russians would've succeded is another story as both sides were amassing troops at the borders.

[Oleg Mastruko]

In this game - Stalin will invade. We don't really know what would happen by 43 if no Barbarossa was started.

Despots and dictators usually don't need "galvanizing effects" coming from outside when they decide to invade, you know [;)] I am sure Uncle Joe would find a way to "galvanize" his people and make them invade Germans with no problems (just as Hitler did).

O.

[Adam Parker]

Got to remember Stalin was already on the move.

He had tried for Finland, he had grabbed half of Poland, he had triumphed in Siberia. This was no insular man. By 1943 he'd have been very mobile!

The interesting question is what would his armored doctrine have been? The West learned from him - what could the West in its feebleness of the early 40's have taught the yet to be formed Russian Steamroller?! What too could the West have achieved anyway to even teach, without the manpower black hole of the Russian Front giving them a strategic breathing space?

[Becket]

The Red Army was in no position to attack in 41. A Russian author writing under the pen name "Suvarov" has proposed that the treaty was a sham for a Soviet attack of Germany, and thus Barbarossa was merely the attempt by Germany to legitimately and pre-emptively invade a beligerent neighbor. It is an odious theory, and thoroughly debunked in Glantz: "Stumbling Colossus". The fact of the matter is that Stalin simply refused to believe it was possible that he could be at war with Germany in 1941. This mindset and the lack of decisionmaking (or, worse, poor decisionmaking) in the two weeks following the invasion led to appalling and potentially avertable losses.

Whether Stalin would have attacked in 43 is an entirely different question. There is no doubt he viewed Hitler as a rival. There is little doubt that the Red Army was climbing out from a nadir in 1941 and would have been stronger in 43, which could lead to any number of results. To speculate is...to speculate. For game balance purposes and fun factor, the Soviets need to come in. [;)]

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Becket

The Red Army was in no position to attack in 41. A Russian author writing under the pen name "Suvarov"... thoroughly debunked in Glantz: "Stumbling Colossus".

Totally agree. Would have been an interesting fight with the lines of communication stretched inversely and no Wehrmacht diversion through Yugoslavia or Greece prior to Barbarossa. Russia trapped by her thaw...

[Wilhammer]

Stalin's Dream was a true Alliance with Hitler, both sharing the global conquest.

Of course, the game models the reason for the war in the east to be purely economic. In Real Life, it was a spiritual decision for Hitler - he wanted Russia econimicaly second, and first to wipe the non Aryan mongols out as a people.

That being said, I think the game is a tad unrealistic in allowing the Germans to gain economic benefits in the long term (maybe the first year only would be approportiate) as their pillaging and mass murder of all Russians and Communists denied them any economic benefit from the Occupied Territiries of the Soviet Union.

Hitlers motivation to attack the Soviet Union was of pure Hatred - the economics of Lebenstraum (on depopulated areas) was to have come much later than this game potrays.

[Grifman]

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer

Stalin's Dream was a true Alliance with Hitler, both sharing the global conquest.

Yes, the Russians offered to join the Tripartite Pact, but were put off by the Germans.

[SeaMonkey]

If you really want to speculate on a viable "what if", think of what may have happened had the UK and France accepted Hitler's peace overtures in October of 1939. Now with no western enemies and the likelyhood of neither Denmark or Norway having been invaded, how long would the German's have waited for the execution of Barbarossa? Would the western powers let them play it out without intervention, militarily and/or Lendlease? And the likely outcome would have been.....?

[Delphinium]

Don't you mean October '39???

[nalivayko]

It's really hilarious to listen to people who think they know everything there is about history, but not as hilarious as to listen to people who think they know what Stalin was thinking or what his plans were.

Btw, Suvorov is not the only writer that challenges official view of Stalin and Russian preparedness for WW2. And I read his opponents as well... the truth, seems to me is in the middle. As to Russian ability to launch a successful invasion of Germany... well, if it could do it with half of the country in ruins, it certainly could in 1943 with German troops occupied in the West. Just remember, as disastrous as Russo-Finnish war was, at the time everybody in the world thought that Mannerheim was 100% impenetrable. Russian army broke through this line with high losses, but still, it was a miracle that should have taught Hitler a lesson. It didn't.

To summarize: yes, Russian attack in 1943 was not possible. Because it would have attacked in summer/fall of 1941.

edit: this is really in reply to becket, not delhinium as the post claims

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: nalivayko

It's really hilarious to listen to people who think they know everything there is about history, but not as hilarious as to listen to people who think they know what Stalin was thinking or what his plans were.

....

Russian attack in 1943 was not possible. Because it would have attacked in summer/fall of 1941.

I think your final sentence should be considered in light of your first.

[:'(]

[nalivayko]

Good point I still don't think there is a log in my eye.

[kaliyama]

Well...I assume that the people talking about Stalin's sneaky intention towards the Germans have read "Icebreaker". There's some discussion about the validity of this work online, and I recommend people read it. it doesn't seem very reliable. I just started reading the prize-winning 1999 book _Stalingrad_, which goes into some (apparently well-archived) detail about Stalin's A) despair at the prospect of fighting germany and B) denial of hitler's real intention.
Stalin summoned the Bulgarian ambassador to mediate between Stalin and Hitler, so Stalin could hand over the baltic states, Ukraine and Belorussia in exchange for peace. To his and molotov's dismay he refused. "Even if you have to retreat to the Urals, you'll still win in the end." Stalin, though, never seemed to realize this.
Kennan's description of the post-war Soviet Union seems to echo this sentiment. The keywords are caution, paranoia and a sclerotic administration. Nobody in the Soviet system was willing to stick their necks out to gain more territory. The idea of exporting revolution ended with Trotsky's career. The Soviets would only start a fight when they were sure to win--Finland, as one example, and the drubbing the Soviets got at the hands of the Finnish made them even more cautious. Getting half of Poland was in exchange for explicitly doing nothing. If the third reich was strong and unbloodied from the Russian morass, Stalin would have been unlikely to fight.
If he was already suffering losses at the hands of the western allies, Stalin was opportunistic enough to capitalize on it. Though his declaration of war on Japan came awfully late. I don't know why-does anybody else?

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: kaliyama
Though his declaration of war on Japan came awfully late. I don't know why-does anybody else?

It was part of the bargain with the Allies that he would open the front. They were going to invade Hokkaido had not IJA units delayed them on Salkhalin. By the time that was taken care of, Japan had surrendered.

[forager]

i think that no matter what eventually the dictator and the despot were going to go to war. i believe that the original german battle plan was to go to war in '41 or '42, not '39. they expected britain to back down as they had in the past, but the brit's called their bluff.

[nalivayko]

hm... let's see... as far as I remember Russian official history always supported that view that Stalin was a big coward, paranoic, who went into shock for nearly two weeks after the war started.

In the same time, reading books about ww2, watching movies about ww2, listening to my grandfather conveys one message: the whole of USSR was rather excited about prospect of going to war on the eve of German invasion... What's the catch? Everyone hoped the war would be on German territory.

I actually read Suvorov's book. I actually checked some sources he mentions. Seemed like a real thing to me. The idea of Stalin giving up Ukraine, White Russia, Baltic States in exchange for peace (while at the same time occupying Baltic States, Bessarabia, half of Poland and parts of Finland) does not feel... right.

Feels like the same old debate I've got into on many forums, maybe we should just forget about history and enjoy the game. For those who are not satisfied with this decision - don't read Suvorov and his critics. Listen to his recommendation and read the diary of Hitler, his generals and letters of his soldiers. Forget about listening to Russian and American historians. Let us listen to our enemies to learn some truth about what really happened.