When to throw in the towel - Advice needed

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

My own experience was a UV long game where my successfull Allied opponent had to stop the game in Dec 1942 for family reasons. 3 players volunteered to replace him and I played the three of them well in 1943, starting from the same situation in Dec 1942. One went for NG first while the two other landed in Solomons, one crushing Jap bases one after the other while the other practiced island hopping.

I am one of those players. BTW, did you win any of those three games?

O.

[Hornblower]

I'd fight it out. (besides with the patch comming soon, why not continue your "learning" now?) The more the IJA/IJN holds the more they have to defend, and more important, the more they have to supply

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

My own experience was a UV long game where my successfull Allied opponent had to stop the game in Dec 1942 for family reasons. 3 players volunteered to replace him and I played the three of them well in 1943, starting from the same situation in Dec 1942. One went for NG first while the two other landed in Solomons, one crushing Jap bases one after the other while the other practiced island hopping.

I am one of those players. BTW, did you win any of those three games?

O.

I was planning to win one of the 3 but you were all experienced players and made no mistakes so I was losing the three of them. Ours was the most advanced in time and the only one where I was allready losing by points but the other were going the same way.

[Bill Durrant]

Just one final thought:

"We shall fight them in the fields........................"

[tsimmonds]

"Don't give up! Never surrender!"

[mogami]

Hi, This is a tough question. Personally I don't think a person should quit when things are going bad. The game has auto victory for that. If you quit after a disaster it seems to me you are saying you will only play while things are going well for you.
I think you pretty much have to fight on and let the game decide. Of course if the score is such that the other player is going to win by AV the next time it is checked and you are unable to alter this then you can concede defeat. However as long as there will be no AV you should fight on. You may have to change the way you have been fighting. I find it difficult to believe that on a map this size there are no options, no chances no strategy that can result in improved outcomes for the side being outscored.
I have stated in other threads when I will surrender as Japan. I will never surrender as Allies (The Japanese have to get their AV ratio) I don't think I can be made to surrender as Japan before the Allies have also gotten very close to their AV requirments.
(I totally refuse to believe the Japanese can ever reach av ratio against me when I am playing the Allies so all further comments are for Japanese players)

It really gets my goat when my PBEM opponents quit because I have done well but they would have continued to pound on me to their hearts content had I not put an end to it.
The same guys who attempt to knock out China or India quit if they lose a CV or 2.

If you start a PBEM game you should play till one of you meet the victory conditions or will clearly meet them no matter what. Since I don't believe in no matter what I play till the game ends. I have lost CV as Japan in at least half my games. I'm certain half my foes are happy with the state of the war at present however they are along way from winning the war and to win the war they will have to prove they can win by doing it. They will never get a win unless they meet the victory condtions. Period.

When they think they have it with no chance of suffering defeat they will still have to contend with me, using reduced forces against hopeless odds planning operations to inflict loss on them and prolong the war.

No one should ever start a PBEM as Japan if they cannot suffer, repeated disasters and hopeless circumstance and still like a wounded tiger strive to lash out one last time and hurt the enemy. Start the PBEM game knowing you are going to lose and then spend every effort not to or at least delay it as long as possible. Measure success as Japan not by making auto victory in 1943 but by simply not surrendering by Aug 1945. If I am still sending out turns in Sept 1945 I will consider myself a success because I think the Allies should be winning the war not later then May 1945.

OK this is how I view the subject. Everyone is free to decide themselves but don't start a game with me, quit, and then ask for another.

[comsolut]

Good points. For me the game had gone into uncharted waters which made me question whether the situation was just snowballing into a lost cause.

All the points brought up for steadfastly playing on I agree with. And if the 1/1/43 auto victory gives Japan a win I can lose honarably or "fight on" depending on how I see my chances. Untill 1/1/43 I will see what I can do to reverse the current tide of Japanese victories.

In all honesty it was no single event (would like to think I have more staying power than that - as there have been two or three showstoppers from the allied point of vew - not to mention some near misses), just a trend. I have also been in constant communication with my opponent and I would like to think we are both enjoying the game and the challenges. Call it a crises in confidence. I'm over it.

Thanks again for all the great views.

[Mr.Frag]

I have to agree with Mogami on this.

At a minimum, you should commit to play until the auto-victory rule kicks in.

Until Jan 1 1943, no game is really lost, no matter how far out the score is. Aircraft and troop losses continue to grind on and the ratios pad themselves in value. What might look like a 4:1 win in June 42 may end up being a 2.5:1 by Dec 42.

At the same time, people play to have fun and if you are not having fun due to totally screwing the pooch, a mercy kill is fair play by your opponent. As long as you understand that half the fun of these types of games is killing the other guy and you don't pack it in without giving them some of that enjoyment, I think along those lines a graceful way out can be had.

[freeboy]

Western Oz can go, its India and China that are really important.

You can win.. or even lose and still enjoy this game.. but lots of time will go by till you are in a place to recover from where you are...
I made huge mistakes... the biggest was to fight way too hard in 42 to slow down my oponets advances.... I lost bigtime ships and trops and planes.. and by late 42 was able to regain some semblance of paraty and by 43 go on the offensive.. I lost 5 carriers by 06 42! then again in 43 lost 5 BB in one month! now in 44 I am slowly pushing.. the hardest part for the Jap player is once you can throw massive heavy bombers at him.. massed you can really crush his airfields.. and without aircover his fleats leave .. etc etc...
you get lots of planes.. and huge amounts of ships and troops... look at the future dates and plan accordingly

[Hipper]

Well done lads

comsolut keeps fighting [:D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, This is a tough question. Personally I don't think a person should quit when things are going bad. The game has auto victory for that. If you quit after a disaster it seems to me you are saying you will only play while things are going well for you.
I think you pretty much have to fight on and let the game decide. Of course if the score is such that the other player is going to win by AV the next time it is checked and you are unable to alter this then you can concede defeat. However as long as there will be no AV you should fight on. You may have to change the way you have been fighting. I find it difficult to believe that on a map this size there are no options, no chances no strategy that can result in improved outcomes for the side being outscored.
I have stated in other threads when I will surrender as Japan. I will never surrender as Allies (The Japanese have to get their AV ratio) I don't think I can be made to surrender as Japan before the Allies have also gotten very close to their AV requirments.
(I totally refuse to believe the Japanese can ever reach av ratio against me when I am playing the Allies so all further comments are for Japanese players)

It really gets my goat when my PBEM opponents quit because I have done well but they would have continued to pound on me to their hearts content had I not put an end to it.
The same guys who attempt to knock out China or India quit if they lose a CV or 2.

If you start a PBEM game you should play till one of you meet the victory conditions or will clearly meet them no matter what. Since I don't believe in no matter what I play till the game ends. I have lost CV as Japan in at least half my games. I'm certain half my foes are happy with the state of the war at present however they are along way from winning the war and to win the war they will have to prove they can win by doing it. They will never get a win unless they meet the victory condtions. Period.

When they think they have it with no chance of suffering defeat they will still have to contend with me, using reduced forces against hopeless odds planning operations to inflict loss on them and prolong the war.

No one should ever start a PBEM as Japan if they cannot suffer, repeated disasters and hopeless circumstance and still like a wounded tiger strive to lash out one last time and hurt the enemy. Start the PBEM game knowing you are going to lose and then spend every effort not to or at least delay it as long as possible. Measure success as Japan not by making auto victory in 1943 but by simply not surrendering by Aug 1945. If I am still sending out turns in Sept 1945 I will consider myself a success because I think the Allies should be winning the war not later then May 1945.

OK this is how I view the subject. Everyone is free to decide themselves but don't start a game with me, quit, and then ask for another.

I hate "me too" posts, and I hate bad quoting/editing but this time I will break both rules...

Agree 100% with Mog! [&o]

Oleg

[RUPD3658]

I think your game is still winable in the long run if you can avoid auto victory in 43. The japanese player has to be a sprinter. The Allied player has to run the marathon. The Japs get few replacements after the war starts so anything they lose is lost forever. The Allies get stronger as time goes on.

If you can hold out until 44 just make a dash for the Marianas and start bombing the p*ss out of the homeland. You will easily score 25k points per year doing this. All the Jap forces holding Oz and all those little islands are meaningless if Japan is getting leveled.

Just remember, the more territoy he has taken, the more he has to defend and the more spead out his forces are.

[bilbow]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

[erstad]

I'll mention an option we're using in one of my PBEM games. The early war went well for me (Japan); we had a number of relatively even carrier battles (e.g., two IJN CVs and a CVL versus two USN CVs) that ended up with the USN as new reefs while I got away with some paint scratches, plus China was just about gone (started pre-1.4, and no house rules cause we didn't know any better). By somewhere around mid-42, he had lost all the CVs (including the Brits), and I had only lost one fleet CV (to a couple of stringbags).

So... my opponent was pretty bummed, I had expanded pretty well and could basically camp on his LOC if I wanted, and he had no CVs to play with. Neither of us really wanted to quit; we had invested a lot of time into the game. Another option is to slog it out, but there wasn't going to be a lot of Allied pushback for quite a while (ok, could start some bombing campaigns, but that's not real exciting in itself) and it would be a long time before things got really interesting. (Me, I might have taken to the challenge of trying to advance solely under LBA cover; but I can also see where not having toys like CVs to play with sucks out a certain amount of fun for most folks).

The solution we came to by mutual agreement was this. We kind of stood down all of our ops, excepting a few "routine" bombing missions, supply/resource convoys, plus a lot of air training. I gave him my password, and he could run a bunch of turns in a row (typically 3-4, but we've done up to about 7; these are two day turns). The few times something really "interesting" happens he stops running turns and returns the game file. Getting it every three or four turns lets me keep my convoys going relatively well, rejigger my air deployments a little, move around some ground units, etc. We were normally getting about a turn a day, but with this he could typically run three turns plus I would run one, so we'd get about 8 game days/RL day. Basically, makes the time zip along. When he gets some more toys to play with, we'll go back to normal.

Been working out OK. My convoys aren't quite as efficient, but I've got lots of excess shipping. I do lose out some when a merchie is torpedoed bya sub, and sinks because it's trying to return to Osaka or something instead of being redirected to a nearby port; but it aslo limits the effectiveness of his LBA because it's mostly hitting bases without air (since if we had a really active air war going I'd need to be rejiggering cap, retreating, etc.).

This kind of idea won't appeal to everyone, and I'm not pushing as a panacea, but it's working out for us.

[comsolut]

Very creative solution. I don't think either of us are there yet but I applaud the approach to keep the game going and still be interesting.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, This is a tough question. Personally I don't think a person should quit when things are going bad. The game has auto victory for that. If you quit after a disaster it seems to me you are saying you will only play while things are going well for you.
I think you pretty much have to fight on and let the game decide. Of course if the score is such that the other player is going to win by AV the next time it is checked and you are unable to alter this then you can concede defeat. However as long as there will be no AV you should fight on. You may have to change the way you have been fighting. I find it difficult to believe that on a map this size there are no options, no chances no strategy that can result in improved outcomes for the side being outscored.
I have stated in other threads when I will surrender as Japan. I will never surrender as Allies (The Japanese have to get their AV ratio) I don't think I can be made to surrender as Japan before the Allies have also gotten very close to their AV requirments.
(I totally refuse to believe the Japanese can ever reach av ratio against me when I am playing the Allies so all further comments are for Japanese players)

It really gets my goat when my PBEM opponents quit because I have done well but they would have continued to pound on me to their hearts content had I not put an end to it.
The same guys who attempt to knock out China or India quit if they lose a CV or 2.

If you start a PBEM game you should play till one of you meet the victory conditions or will clearly meet them no matter what. Since I don't believe in no matter what I play till the game ends. I have lost CV as Japan in at least half my games. I'm certain half my foes are happy with the state of the war at present however they are along way from winning the war and to win the war they will have to prove they can win by doing it. They will never get a win unless they meet the victory condtions. Period.

When they think they have it with no chance of suffering defeat they will still have to contend with me, using reduced forces against hopeless odds planning operations to inflict loss on them and prolong the war.

No one should ever start a PBEM as Japan if they cannot suffer, repeated disasters and hopeless circumstance and still like a wounded tiger strive to lash out one last time and hurt the enemy. Start the PBEM game knowing you are going to lose and then spend every effort not to or at least delay it as long as possible. Measure success as Japan not by making auto victory in 1943 but by simply not surrendering by Aug 1945. If I am still sending out turns in Sept 1945 I will consider myself a success because I think the Allies should be winning the war not later then May 1945.

OK this is how I view the subject. Everyone is free to decide themselves but don't start a game with me, quit, and then ask for another.

Agreed 100% (and this is how I always saw and conducted myself in both UV and WitP PBEMs)!!!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Crimguy]

"Over?...
Did you say ....'over'?
Nothing is over until we decide it is!
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
And it ain't over now. Cause when the going gets tough......
the tough get going."

-J. Belushi

[Nikademus]

Why not just change the turn rate from 1 to 3 and exchange? That way you can manage your administrative functions yourself and accelerate the game that way.

[comsolut]

Already on a 3 day turn cycle - which I for one enjoy and feel is much more realistic.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Halsey]

It's time to admit defeat when the game becomes a chore instead of a pleasure.
When you start to dread making your move because it seems hopeless.[:D]

Then it's time to call it a game and move on to the next victim.[;)]