He 177?

[SoleSurvivor]

The He 177 shouldn't be availabvle 6/41.

During the Stalingrad Siege of '42 there was a "Erprobungskommando" (test group) who flew the He 177 and still experienced problems that prevented large scale production.

[Don Shafer]

It isn't. If it is showing up as available, then something is really fishy in Denmark. Are you using the Version 3.0 from Matrix's website and are you installing it into a clean directory and not updating a previous version of WIR?

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
The He 177 shouldn't be availabvle 6/41.

During the Stalingrad Siege of '42 there was a "Erprobungskommando" (test group) who flew the He 177 and still experienced problems that prevented large scale production.

[SoleSurvivor]

I'm using the version I d/led in June, no version installed before, I just transformed a factory to he177 after I saw 6/41 in the alt-r txt and already have a sqad out now in 10/41

[Don Shafer]

The availability dates in the Alt-R sequence are not accurate. He-177 in 10/41 is not too far out of line since you can "accelerate" production if you switch the factory ahead of time. It doesn't work all of the time, but sometimes you can get a month head start on production by switching a factory that is meant to produce that particular equipment sooner. It has been a feature of the game since the beginning.

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
I'm using the version I d/led in June, no version installed before, I just transformed a factory to he177 after I saw 6/41 in the alt-r txt and already have a sqad out now in 10/41

[SoleSurvivor]

still, the factory began to produce very much before 10/41. And even 10/41 is way before any historical day for big production. The machine suffered from problems with the double-DB601-motor (2 x 2 motors on one axis) which orevented it from being produced on a regular basis before 1943 if ever.

[Svar]

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
I'm using the version I d/led in June, no version installed before, I just transformed a factory to he177 after I saw 6/41 in the alt-r txt and already have a sqad out now in 10/41

SoleSurvivor,

The normal availability date for the He-177 in version 3.0 is about 30 March 1942. If you changed a factory in 6/41 and got production before early 11/41 then it is a bug. The way research works is, the game looks at the total production of research for a particular item and compares it to a random number between 1 and 100. If the random number is less than the total research then the production availability of that item is advanced 1 week. So if the production availability was to be cut in half, you would need to get a lower random number every week. The only way to guarantee this is have the total research production total over 100. I used to do this with the Me-262 in Second Front when you could change the He-177 factories at 15 production to Fw-190a factories at 30 production. By running all your A/C factories through He-177 production first you could convert 8 factories to Me-262 research and cut the production availability time in half from the time you made the change to the normal Me-262 availability. I usually had Me-262's by the end of 1943.

Most people don't use research anymore because the new factories generally start much later than they did in older versions on WIR to reflect the actual production increases that occurred historically. You just don't have any excess capacity to devote to research. That is why if this is a bug nobody has reported it before.

Svar

[Don Shafer]

I would agree. Problem being, I haven't seen this in my tests, since like you said, probably never thought to try it. That's why I questioned the version being used. Guess we'll have to add this to the buglist.

Originally posted by Svar:


SoleSurvivor,

The normal availability date for the He-177 in version 3.0 is about 30 March 1942. If you changed a factory in 6/41 and got production before early 11/41 then it is a bug. The way research works is, the game looks at the total production of research for a particular item and compares it to a random number between 1 and 100. If the random number is less than the total research then the production availability of that item is advanced 1 week. So if the production availability was to be cut in half, you would need to get a lower random number every week. The only way to guarantee this is have the total research production total over 100. I used to do this with the Me-262 in Second Front when you could change the He-177 factories at 15 production to Fw-190a factories at 30 production. By running all your A/C factories through He-177 production first you could convert 8 factories to Me-262 research and cut the production availability time in half from the time you made the change to the normal Me-262 availability. I usually had Me-262's by the end of 1943.

Most people don't use research anymore because the new factories generally start much later than they did in older versions on WIR to reflect the actual production increases that occurred historically. You just don't have any excess capacity to devote to research. That is why if this is a bug nobody has reported it before.

Svar

[SoleSurvivor]

again I never had the game bbefore June and downloaded it straight from matrix so I believe it should be 3.0

[JustAGame]

The following is the best account that I could find in addressing the questions here:

In 1938 the RLM approached the Heinkel company with a requirement for a heavy bomber. The resultant four-engined mid-wing He 177 Greif(Griffon) had 1,000-hp (746 kW) DB 601 engines coupled in pairs (termed DB 606s) to drive single propellers. The first aircraft, the He 177111, was flown on 19 November 1939. Continuing engine overheating problems and persistent structural failures delayed production, the first He 177A-1s not reaching L/KG 40 for operational trials until July 1942. In the course of these trials, He 177s took part in raids on the UK, but generally they proved disappointing in service. Several sub-variants of the He 177A-3 were produced, including the He 177A3/11113 carrying three Hs 293 anti-shipping weapons, the He 177A-3/R5 with 75mm gun in the ventral gondola and the He 177A-3/R7torpedo-bomber.

He 177A-3s were used by FKGr 2 to fly supply missions to German forces at Stalingrad in January 1943. The He 177A-5 incorporated a stronger wing to carry heavier external loads, and a small number were converted to the Zerstdrer role with 33 upward-firing rocket tubes in the normal bomb bays. Small numbers of He 177A-5s returned to night attack on the UK early in 1944. This latter version was the last to serve with the Luftwaffe (bombers being afforded low priority during the last year of the war). The Greif bombers, originally intended to provide the Luftwaffe with a strategic bombing force, encountered so many development problems that they only entered service in quantity during the last 18 months of the war. About 1,160 production and 30 prototype He 177s were built.


He 177A-S/R2 Greif
Manufacturer: Heinkel
Type: six-crew bomber
Power plant: two 2,950-hp ( 2200Z ) Daimler-Benz DB 610A 1/B-1 inline pistons

Performance
Max speed: 303 mph (488 km/h) at 19,685 ft (6000m)
Climb rate: 623 ft (190m) per minute
Ceiling: 26,245 ft (8000m)
Range (with two Hs 293) 3,418 miles (5500 km)

Weights
Empty: 37,257 lb (16900 kg)
Max take-off: 68,342 lb (31000 kg)

Dimensions:
Wing span 103 ft 1% in ( 31.44 m )
Length 66 ft 11 X in ( 20.40 m )
Height 20 ft 11% in ( 6.40 m )
Wing area 1,098.0 sq ft ( 102.00 m² )

Armament:
Nose 7.92mm ( 0.31 in ) MG 81 gun
13mm ( 0.51 in ) MG 131 gun in forward & rear dorsal turrets & ventral gondola
20mm MG FF cannon in ventral gondola & tail
Max bomb load: 13,228 lb (6000 kg) or two Hs 293 weapons


He 177V1 first aircraft to fly on November 19, 1939
He 177A-1 first operational trials in July 1942. During this period some He 177s were used in bombing raids against the UK but proved to be a dissapointment.
He 177A-3 This type flew re-supply missions to Stalingrad in January of 1943.
He 177A-3/R3 Modified to carry three Hs 293 anti-shipping missiles.
He 177A-3/R5 75 mm gun mounted in ventral gondola.
He 177A-3/R7 torpedo bomber.
He 177A-5 stronger wing to carry heavier loads. Some bombed the UK at night early in 1944.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by JustAGame:
He177 stats...

Here's a good reason why I hope Gary gets away from a single "Cost" variable and adds a Durability and maybe a Complexity rating too. The stats appear good, but the problems with development and materials need to construct it made it a minor plane, whereas in WiR its nearly the best bomber in the world.

[Ranger-75]

The HE177 was a faulire no matter how one wants to look at it. In game terms, it should have only marginaly greater capabilities than the German medium bombers with a high "cost" to discourage its use. It was a poor concept, poorly executed.

I thought I read about an experimental FW manufactured 4-engine bomber - can't remember the designation. Supposedly it made test flights almost to the US east coast. Anybody read or hear of this plane ??

[Ranger-75]

The same goes for the Ferdinand (or Porsche Tiger, you know, the one with 8MPH speed and NO secondary MG armament!!!)).

That was a complete waste of precious German resources. It has killer specs, but it was a total failure in combat.

The game should have a pop up question in Feb 42 (or whenever the Ferdinand went into limited production) asking the player "The Ferdinand can now be built, do you want to build ferdinands or Tiger Is?" That way, we don't have to waste months of production changing it manually.

[jager506]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Santos:

The same goes for the Ferdinand (or Porsche Tiger, you know, the one with 8MPH speed and NO secondary MG armament!!!)). ...That was a complete waste of precious German resources. It has killer specs, but it was a total failure in combat.

The game should have a pop up question in Feb 42 (or whenever the Ferdinand went into limited production) asking the player "The Ferdinand can now be built, do you want to build ferdinands or Tiger Is?" That way, we don't have to waste months of production changing it manually.


After the disaster at Kursk, the remainder were fitted out with MGs and sent to Italy, but their huge weight and poor Italian terrain didn't help much either. Besides, the US/British tanks of late 1943 were quite puny, heavy jagdpanzers like Elefant were wasted on them IMO.

[JustAGame]

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
...

I thought I read about an experimental FW manufactured 4-engine bomber - can't remember the designation. Supposedly it made test flights almost to the US east coast. Anybody read or hear of this plane ??

In January 1944, the Germans tested their Ju 390 prototype for it's ability to bomb New York city. The 6 engine bomber was the largest German aircraft and carried enough fuel for 32 hours of flight time. During the test flight, the prototype reached to within 12 miles of the US coast and returned safely (6000 mile flight) in just over one day.

[SoleSurvivor]

I guess expanding the FW200 design for a bomber plane role would have been less costly and more effective. How hard can it be to build some dropping facilities for bombs to the plane?

[CynicAl]

The FW200 was capable of bombing, but had a very limited payload due largely to its fragile construction - as it was, it had a nasty habit of breaking up on landing. To make a strategic bomber out of it, you'd need a much stronger airframe, more power, more fuel... you'd basically have to start over from scratch.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Originally posted by Chimera:

Originally posted by Mike Santos:

The same goes for the Ferdinand (or Porsche Tiger, you know, the one with 8MPH speed and NO secondary MG armament!!!)). ...That was a complete waste of precious German resources. It has killer specs, but it was a total failure in combat.

The game should have a pop up question in Feb 42 (or whenever the Ferdinand went into limited production) asking the player "The Ferdinand can now be built, do you want to build ferdinands or Tiger Is?" That way, we don't have to waste months of production changing it manually.


After the disaster at Kursk, the remainder were fitted out with MGs and sent to Italy, but their huge weight and poor Italian terrain didn't help much either. Besides, the US/British tanks of late 1943 were quite puny, heavy jagdpanzers like Elefant were wasted on them IMO.

---

Well the Ferdinand myth... let´s look about this, sPjAbtl 658 and 659, both fitted with 45 PnzJaeger Ferdinand (called so after Ferdinand Porsche, the Beetle developer) stayed at Kursk. The so called huge losses, wich numbers did you have ? My knowledge about them was, that they had a few losses but huge kill numbers. Remembers me at the tale of the Russian General Rosskossoski (spelling) from Prochorovka, the burning T34 ramming an Tiger.... nice story, but how often happened that ? At prochorovka zero times. MAybe R. had a vew vodkas to much or remembered this out of an other story...

The Ferdinand was a mistake, but not so bad, everybody thinks. The panther was a big mistake, too. The tiger, was a big mistake. (Leningrad August 42) But ask a veteran about a german tiger... they will tell you one or two stories..

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Adnan Meshuggi:


Well the Ferdinand myth... let´s look about this, sPjAbtl 658 and 659, both fitted with 45 PnzJaeger Ferdinand (called so after Ferdinand Porsche, the Beetle developer) stayed at Kursk. The so called huge losses, wich numbers did you have ? My knowledge about them was, that they had a few losses but huge kill numbers.

---

Wasn't there losses heavy at Kursk because they had no ability to defend themselves against infantry? They lacked machine guns, or the anti-infantry mortor system used on later Tigers (Panthers too?), so once the Soviet infantry reached them many were taken out of the fight.

The Ferdinand was a mistake, but not so bad, everybody thinks. The panther was a big mistake, too. The tiger, was a big mistake. (Leningrad August 42) But ask a veteran about a german tiger... they will tell you one or two stories..

---

I'm confused, why are the Tiger and Panther tanks mistakes?

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
...
I'm confused, why are the Tiger and Panther tanks mistakes?

---

I took it to mean that the Tiger and Panther combat debuts were both failures, similarly to the Ferdinand. The Tiger was first used in the Leningrad area and suffered losses from bogging down in swampy terrain that was completely unsuited for its use. The Panthers suffered numerous breakdowns at Kursk due to mechanical unreliability. Thus, based on their initial combat experience, all three could have been considered mistakes, but the 2 were looked on favorably by history but not the Ferdinand.

[Ranger-75]

To RickyD and Adnan;
The Tiger I was initially "deployed" (if you can call 4 tanks a deployment) in the Leningrad area in early 1942. It was not a largely sucessful trial because of the ,imited number in action and the unsuitably of the terrain and the current tactical situation in that area. While the Tiger was excessively expensive and required huge man hours to manufacture, it was a very successful tank when view from a kills / losses viewpoint without requiring major design revisions.

The initial Panther model D was sufferred from mechanical troubles at first, but it proved even more successful (largely because or more widespread usage) once the initial difficulties were worked out. Again it did not require major design changes (it was sort of like a 1.0 software release, shouldn't have been sent out, but "marketing" (Hitler) insisted).

The Ferdinand however, shared none of the long term success of the panther or tiger, The main gun had almost no traverse and as stated it could not defend itself against infantry. My references categorize it as an "operational dissappointment" Several dozen were lost to breakdowns at Kursk with more than 2o other put out of action to soviet attacks (short range AT waepons). There were very few left when they were sent to Italy in 1944, where by war's end they were all losses.

Justagame:
I found my source, the Ju 390 was a transport / recon plane, it probably coould have been modified to carry bobms. The purpose built plane was the Me 264 which was originally a propellor plane later converted to a jet design (with a speed of 500mph). 41 Ju 290s were built with only prototypes of the ME 264 ever flying.