Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Gary Grigsby's World At War gives you the chance to really run a world war. History is yours to write and things may turn out differently. The Western Allies may be conquered by Germany, or Japan may defeat China. With you at the controls, leading the fates of nations and alliances. Take command in this dynamic turn-based game and test strategies that long-past generals and world leaders could only dream of. Now anything is possible in this new strategic offering from Matrix Games and 2 by 3 Games.

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literati
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Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by literati »

Upon further reflection, I think some of the issues I'm having with the game revolve around basic design decisions. As such, they probably aren't 'fixable' per se, but they make good forum fodder. :)

The 'reality' that WaWseems to assert is that the Axis powers never could have won a protracted war. Thus, a seperate auto-victory possibility has been created fort he Axis, representing (I'm guessing a bit) that a number of quick and decisive Axis victories might cause the US and other Allied powers to balk at getting involved. This, in turn, leads to some overt and covert scripting. Dates are set where the US and Germany will attack Country X and Y on Date Z.

Ok, I think that's an argueable thesis... but it's not one I'd personally buy into, and I don't think it's as interesting as some of the alternatives.

The above scenario has lead to a very rushed and almost railroad tight gaming experience when I play the Axis. By far, the most accessible victory is the one being mentioned: hit the USSR from both ends and hope you get the win before the US shows. Creativity in approach is punished in a number of ways. The US is a financial juggernaut unrivalled by the combination of any three other countries, and so any plan must be nearing completion when they enter the dance. Japan's laughably-low population base and miniscule production make any confrontation there an exercise in futility, and Germany has its own problems.

Note that the above case doesn't provide a whole lot of strategic thought left for the other players either. China is essentially a non-power in the game. Russia might be fun, trying to stall a two-front war in the Homeland, but the WA is left bombing and hoping until the US enters, by which time it is all mop-up.

Personally, I don't buy that USSR are would have inevitably entered the war, just as I don't buy that the US's involvement was inevitable. I think it would be far interesting to interject some chance in the above. Have the AI make a list of all of the events that have happened in the previous turn that might incite them to war. Weight the factors variably: territory conquered, friend countries abused, sovreign nations overtaken, production on the rise, army size, and more. Total these factors into a percentage chance, and have the Ai roll for whether it enters the fray.

Moreover, do the same with automatic victories. Make taking a capitol city cause a *chance* for surrender. Make taking a great number of supply points cause a *chance* that the other countries will withdraw.

This would changce the game so much for the better. No longer could I count on certain borders being safe until certain specific times. No longer could I know when a certain country would enter the war - or even if they would enter at all!

I admit that I am in love with plausible 'what if' games. I think we all are. My father and I have always had great fun talking about the what-ifs in WW2. What if Hitler had waited a year, producing enough U-Boats that supply between America and Europe was almost impossible? What if he had never attacked the USSR? What if Pearl Harbor had never happened, and Japan had instead concentrated on Karafuto and China? These are the questions that cause me to play these games, and that's what I'm missing right now: more what-ifs.
hickmanj
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by hickmanj »

I agree somewhat. I was psyched when I saw you could turn off victory conditions and then play until death.... unfortunately this game doesn't seem to be playable that way w/o the squeeze SU strategy alone.... Maybe I'm too new though - I'm open to hearing from the play-testers that alternate history campaigns are possible.

The population bases seem a bit weak.... I don't want to play a "history simulator" I want to make history. Multiple ways.

J
"Frazzblut the skreedle - NOW!"
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Becket
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by Becket »

I really suggest you guys give it some time. I sorta have the feeling I can do anything I want with Germany, at least up to Challenging difficulty. I can most assuredly knock the Soviets out of the war without using Japan.

I just (humbly) suggest that you play around with it for a while, see what's possible and refine your strategies. Making life easier for the Germans is not the answer.

As for potentially keeping the US and USSR frozen (potentially) indefinitely, that would really hurt the fun factor in PBEM. I know it took a lot of convincing for my non-wargamer friends to understand how the game could be fun when they were frozen.

"The very word Moscow meant a lot to all of us....it meant all we had ever fought for" -Rokossovsky
dobeln
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by dobeln »

Well, from a purely historical perspective, that's probably how things should be. The production capacity of the US was simply huge, especially compared to Japan.

Still, I wonder if you have reached a decision yet on that issue of infantry always being capable of crossing 2-movement-cost borders? After all, the "Squeeze"-strategy being so effective has a lot to do with the ease with which Japan can traverse Siberia. :)

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simone.donnini
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by simone.donnini »

Literati I agree with you 100%
I am sure that future patches will address many issues
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Paul Vebber
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by Paul Vebber »

I'm not so sure the "squeeze" is as easy to pull off as I made it look...I misunderstood the effect of it on US entry.

Dalwin
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by Dalwin »

I completely disagree.

Historically, the possibility of the Allies agreeing to an armistice with favorable terms to the Axis was a realistic thing. The Allies were very close to losing at one point.

It is only from the vantage point of a game in which no one is really dieing and in which national morale is not even an issue that you can see the Allied victory as inevitable.

Also, from a game perspective rather than an historical one, this game is quite winable as the Germans even without the Automatic victory.

I just finished by first game. Barely glanced at the manual as questions came up along the way. Played Germans/normal with advanced supplies and fog of war. In spite of this being a learning game and making several mistakes, I still held out for a marginal Axis victory. The AI can be defeated without needing to get lucky or do anyting odd.

Now, if you turn off the end of game timer and turn off the automatic victory, then the Allied victory may be inevitable. Why would it not be when you have just opted to give them and their population the unlimited will to fight?

In the real world as in the normal game settings, people eventually get tired of fighting.
SeaMonkey
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by SeaMonkey »

Look guys don't worry about the "what ifs", WaW provides enough simulation to work through a limited vision of variables ascribing to the real possibilities. For the more theoretical, with the diplomacy options, SC2 looms on the horizon with its TOAW like editor. And remember we haven't even ruffled the surface of the modding options for WaW.......the future is bright[8D]
hickmanj
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by hickmanj »

Please don't think in any way that I am unhappy with the game.

Hell, if I could roll over everyone I'd already be bored :) I think I'm asking/nitpicking BECAUSE this game has me hooked, addicted, immersed.... It has been a long while since a game has dominated my thoughts - when I'm at work or not playing I'm turning over strategies in my head :)

Sorry if I sounded whiny.... I just get excited to post after each defeat (lol). I'm still grappling with Advanced Supply - I cannot even win with the normal supply (where it's in a pool and teleported) .... yikes!

Beckett (et al) I appreciate the advice and it helps just hearing that people have mastered Germany - just needed to hear that it is "doable" :)

J
"Frazzblut the skreedle - NOW!"
QBeam
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by QBeam »

I also disagree that the Axis can't beat the Allies. The first game I played I won a decisive Axis victory playing on Challenging/Advanced, Japan on AI. On the last turn of the game, Germany still held three provinces, and had formiddible armies to continue deffending both German provinces.

Frankly, one of the big bragging points I used to persuade another gaming friend of mine to break down and buy this game is that it doesn't make the same mistake as so many other strategic WWII games, which let Germany turn a bit of early success into Festung Europa, where the Allies can never crack the German fall-back lines (usually the Sigfried line, Runstedt's line in Italy, who's name escapes me, and a line through the Carpathians and behind one of the rivers in Poland, depending on the game). Perhaps the most truly aweful game of all, though, was Axis and Allies, whose victory conditions (erroneously) taught a whole generation of casual gamers that the Axis could win a protracted war against the U.S. and her allies. The numbers show that's sheer fantasy. Once the U.S. got in, Germany had to win a psychological victory. Maybe if Wacht am Rhein had worked (like Patton thought it would), it would have shocked the Wallies into a separate peace. Or if D-Day itself had failed--it might have toppled the U.S. government if we lost 10 entire divsions--down to the man--in a single week. But as long as America was willing to suck down the losses, victory was just a matter of time.

Anyway, this game feels like it's got a nice range of victory conditions, with a couple of different ways to end up with a race against the clock for the Wallies at the end. No doubt as lots of people play, a number of nasty tricks will be discovered that distort play balance, but those can be dealt with in patches, I hope.
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Dalwin
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RE: Axis Victory Conditions and Scripted Events

Post by Dalwin »

On an historical note, the name of the line in Italy was the Gustav Line (or maybe spelled Gustaf).
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