CHS questions, comments & feedback

[mogami]

Hi, The problem with China in WITP is not OOB.
Whoever is designing the mod has to decide

Do we want a free-for-all or do we want the Nations ties to historic resons for their behavoiur. The Chinese are engaged in a Civil War. And being invaded. United Chinese action only occurs against Japanese attacks. If the Japanese don't move niether CHinese faction moves. The 2 Chinas spend all their effort building forces because they know the Japanese are going to lose the Pacific War and then they will leave China.

Some people interpet this as China being unable to defeat Japan. But they have to understand the Chinese knew Japan was defeated. Japan was not an issue after Dec 7 1941. Only when Japan attampted new gains did they matter and then the Chinese fought and won. (Because what ever faction the Japanese attacked did not want to lose any area that provided support)

If China had not been engaged in a Civil War older then the Japanese invasion.
If China had not been divided into factions.
China would still control Manchuria and Korea. There would have been no Pacific War because the IJA would never have gained control of government.

In an out and out free for all with China commiting everything to defeat Japan China would steam roll the Japanese. It didn't happen because there was no reason for it to happen.
You can't tweek this into the game. The players have to respect the history and conditions and the game and just restrain themselves.

[scout1]

OK,

For what little I knew of the PTO, I know even less concerning China.
Relative to the IJA, what level/percentage of their force pool was committed to China
a) Assault LCU's
b) Artillery
c) Static/garrison
d) Combat aircraft
1) Single engine
2) Multi Engine
e) Support aircraft

If Japan considered China their "main" theater, one would expect these to be significant numbers.

What natural resources was Japan after in China ? And did they get them ?

[eMonticello]

Might I suggest a good book entitled:

Iriye, Akira. Origins of The Second World War in the Pacific
Longman: NY, 1987.

The short answer to the question of which resources that the Japanese wanted is: Manchuria. Aside from being rich in iron, coking coal, soybeans, and salt, Manchuria received a significant amount of capital from Japan to improve their infrastructure. The Japanese believed that the Chinese government was too weak to protect their investment, so the IJA was dispatched to Manchuria in the early 30's much like the Marines were dispatched to protect American interests during times of unrest in the Caribbean and Central America.

With regard to China being the main theater for IJA ... this is true. However, the IJA was not interested in fighting a Total War. Their mission was to protect their interests in China and not to defeat the Nationalists, who were useful since they were fighting another of Japan's enemies ... the Communists. The Japanese government attempted several times to end the war prior to the US involvement; however, the civilian government was structurally too weak to stand up to the IJA and ultimately provided conditions to Chiang Kai-shek that he found to be unacceptable.

[Halsey]

How do the merchant shipping load points in the CHS compare to the #15 stock scenario?

How was the shipping tonnage decided on for the CHS? Or was it even a consideration?

Anyone have this information?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

How do the merchant shipping load points in the CHS compare to the #15 stock scenario?

How was the shipping tonnage decided on for the CHS? Or was it even a consideration?

Anyone have this information?

Merchant Ships capacity for newly added classes was based on Gross Registered Tons. This is a measurement of the enclosed spaces within a ship that are available for cargo, passengers, and crew. GRT is a space measurement, not a weight measurement. On a Freighter GRT is less than Deadweight Tons as only portions of the ship are available for cargo, etc. On a Passenger Liner GRT is greater as large superstructures are built above deck to carry passengers.

CHS originally set cargo ships at 90% of GRT and Passenger Ships at 50% of GRT. Then, after some tests, capacities for all ships (including the original Matrix classes) were reduced by 25%. Finally one type, the USMC C3, which calculated at around 4900 was raised to 5000 due to the 5000 minimum on conversions.

Here are the totals:

[Halsey]

Thanks Don!
This is great info.[8D]

[rhohltjr]

Don,

Lemurs and Mogami have hinted in other threads that this CHS
mod is intended for PBEM gamers. Something about the AI not
being able to function correctly with the mod. Not that it
(the AI)is very good with the baselined files anyway.

If that is true, is there anyway us non-PBEM gamers can use any
of the CHS fantastic art or database files for our solo games against the AI?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: rhohltjr

Don,

Lemurs and Mogami have hinted in other threads that this CHS
mod is intended for PBEM gamers. Something about the AI not
being able to function correctly with the mod. Not that it
(the AI)is very good with the baselined files anyway.

If that is true, is there anyway us non-PBEM gamers can use any
of the CHS fantastic art or database files for our solo games against the AI?

I play against the AI - it's just the way I like to do it. Basically the mod just gives both sides a different OOB so it should not, of itself, break to AI. The problem is simply that the AI has no pre-programming to take advantage of the new units. Possible problems exist in the troop/cargo loading routines due to the larger variation in ship capacity but I have seen no real detriment to the AI. Nor any benefit either.

A human opponent would obviously do a better job and be much more challenging, but games against the AI are still viable.

[rhohltjr]

Thanks Don,

That is great news. If you are satisfied with the modded game playing the AI then I have hope too.[:D]
Now I can breath again, and will be waiting for everyones opinions of the beta, delta, gamma, and omega
builds.[;)]

[pad152]

Allied PC Tiger (Reliance Class) not upgrading.

The PC Tiger has an upgrade date of 12/42, upgrade set to on, in Perl 12/20 and will not upgrade?
Both the Tiger and port have zero points of damage!

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Allied PC Tiger (Reliance Class) not upgrading.

The PC Tiger has an upgrade date of 12/42, upgrade set to on, in Perl 12/20 and will not upgrade?
Both the Tiger and port have zero points of damage!

No idea on this one. The Reliance class has not been altered by the mod - and I've seen a couple of posts lately about upgrades???

[pad152]

Don,

Lemurs and Mogami have hinted in other threads that this CHS
mod is intended for PBEM gamers. Something about the AI not
being able to function correctly with the mod. Not that it
(the AI)is very good with the baselined files anyway.

If that is true, is there anyway us non-PBEM gamers can use any
of the CHS fantastic art or database files for our solo games against the AI?

This issue with the AI is this, the AI will never attack/defend new bases, or locations is wasn't programed for! This is why you never see the AI Japan attack Midway or Alaska even in the original scenarios. If you look at the AI in the editor, you have to assign which forces (Air/Land/Naval) will attack and defend each base on the map. Also you assign how important a base is and
if the AI will use it's carriers to defend it. You can create a new AI script for a new scenario but you can't edit the AI script used by the stock scenarios. Creating a new AI script for both the allies and Japan in new scenarion 15 is a monster undertaking!

The bottom line, the AI should be no better or worse when attacking/defending the same bases and locations in the original scenario CHS was copied from!

If CHS wants the AI to use new aircraft types like the G5N Liz, then Japan must be given new factories to built them and new airgroups to fly them. When adding new ships, Japan needs to be given increases in supply/resources/naval yards other wize they may never be built.

[rhohltjr]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Me:
.....
If that is true, is there anyway us non-PBEM gamers can use any
of the CHS fantastic art or database files for our solo games against the AI?

This issue with the AI is this, the AI will never attack/defend new bases, or locations is wasn't programed for! This is why you never see the AI Japan attack Midway or Alaska even in the original scenarios. If you look at the AI in the editor, you have to assign which forces (Air/Land/Naval) will attack and defend each base on the map. Also you assign how important a base is and
if the AI will use it's carriers to defend it. You can create a new AI script for a new scenario but you can't edit the AI script used by the stock scenarios. Creating a new AI script for both the allies and Japan in new scenarion 15 is a monster undertaking!

The bottom line, the AI should be no better or worse when attacking/defending the same bases and locations in the original scenario CHS was copied from!

If CHS wants the AI to use new aircraft types like the G5N Liz, then Japan must be given new factories to built them and new airgroups to fly them. When adding new ships, Japan needs to be given increases in supply/resources/naval yards other wize they may never be built.

Thanks Pad152, Don answered my questions. With Don also playing the AI (as I do exclusively), I am sure he will be a great barometer for how the CHS fits in with the AI. Now you have me curious, are you saying the new/late war japanese aircraft being placed into the CHS database will not be built without
type specific factories??? Is this the same for the Allies? I was under the impression that the factories (on the Allied side) upgraded to newer models/types automatically.
Since I have been playing Allies I really haven't given that whole factory issue much thought up to now.[8|]

[Lemurs!]

There are only a couple of different Japanese aircraft the AI will not build. They are very minor and are intended for PbeM only.

It is not something to be concerned about.
The problem with the AI is that it is not 'AI' but just a series of generalized pre written orders. There is no AI in the game.

Mike

[jcjordan]

Could find where the original post is about wanting feedback on this but just FYI in my game vs IJ AI, Hong Kong fell on 12/12/41 to the 38th & 104th Divs odds 37-1 fort 26. I held my own for the first couple of days with odds 0-1 but I guess the second division showing up ended any chance my troops may have had as odds & forts started going down from there. The AI is driving in Malaya with Georgetown & Kuantan currently under attack & Moulmein is already under attack too (I thought I might have another week or 2 before this would happen).

[TIMJOT]

Just tried to open the CHS in the database editor and got an error message "Cannot open device data file" which is preventing the scenerio from loading into the editor. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance for any help

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: jcjordan
The AI is driving in Malaya with Georgetown & Kuantan currently under attack & Moulmein is already under attack too (I thought I might have another week or 2 before this would happen).

I suspect that the rapid advance on Moulmein is due to a fault in the map - the Burma Railway from near Bangkok to near Moulmein should be a track - not a railway (wasn't built until 43 and even then was a low capacity line). I suggest downloading and installing the update for the special CHS map, to version 3b. The update is available on my WitP website.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

Just tried to open the CHS in the database editor and got an error message "Cannot open device data file" which is preventing the scenerio from loading into the editor. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance for any help

I believe the message means the editor could not find the file "wpd155.dat". Should be in your "Scen" directory. If not, you may want to download the scenario again from Spooky's.

Don

[bstarr]

I've got a Jap MSW arriving in the Allied OOB. It's an MSW that was sunk early in the war, so it's probably a spawning issue. I checked the database and nothing seems wrong there. I also sank one of the new SD-type AGs and the Allies recieved an LCVP. I've lost about a half dozen standard-type AGs and they seemed to have spawned normally.

By the way, the ship is 613 Choun Maru #18, and I think the AG was SD-5. They both look fine in the database.
bs


ps. I've been out for a couple of days so someone may have already found this.

pps. I haven't been posting but I've been playing like mad. I'm at 2/19/41 and plan on posting a lengthy rundown as soon as Java falls.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I've got a Jap MSW arriving in the Allied OOB. It's an MSW that was sunk early in the war, so it's probably a spawning issue. I checked the database and nothing seems wrong there. I also sank one of the new SD-type AGs and the Allies recieved an LCVP. I've lost about a half dozen standard-type AGs and they seemed to have spawned normally.

By the way, the ship is 613 Choun Maru #18, and I think the AG was SD-5. They both look fine in the database.
bs


ps. I've been out for a couple of days so someone may have already found this.

pps. I haven't been posting but I've been playing like mad. I'm at 2/19/41 and plan on posting a lengthy rundown as soon as Java falls.

This is a new one - I've not seen it before. As you say, both ships look fine in the Database. I wonder if we hit one of those "if you change something the game will have problems" things that Pry has spoken about??