Soviet units EATING supplies!

[Rundstedt]

Yes, Ed, I agree that it would be much better to count the exact number of armored battalions instead of just going by the formations name, and authorized unit strength.

First of all, we need to make a correct definition of the GENERAL differense between a Panzer Division and a Panzergrenadier Division. A Pz. Gr. Division contained ONE battalion of armor (usually tank destroyers, except for the elite formations which actually received tanks), while a typical Panzer Division usually contained TWO armored battalions (the common composition was one battalion of Panther tanks and one battalion Mark IV's). These examples are from two divisions in 1944.

Another important differense regarding these types of division is their transportation of infantry units. A pure Panzer Division typically (but not always) were supplied with SPW's for their infantry battalions, in order to allow them following the armored units into battle. On the other hand, the infantry battalions of Pz. Gr. Divisions were equipped with trucks instead of SPW's, mostly due to shortages.

Now, my suggestion is that Pz. Gr. divisions only count as 2 stacking points, while maintaining the 3 stacking points for an armored division. Any suggestions or comments?

Regards, Rundstedt

PS. Kuniwoth, I hope this was intelligent enough for you?

[Rundstedt]

I might have to add that the infantry battalions belonging to these two types of divisions were BOTH designated Panzergrenadiere, even though they were NOT equipped with the same vehicles.

Regards, Rundstedt

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Rundstedt ]

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
Now, my suggestion is that Pz. Gr. divisions only count as 2 stacking points, while maintaining the 3 stacking points for an armored division. Any suggestions or comments?

It would work, but it doesn't solve the problem that was raised initially. Moonfog's last question was why a PzDiv with 3 vehicle btns has the same stacking capacity as one of those SS or elite divs with 4 vehicle btns.

How about this:

• Any division counts as 1 point.
• Every vehicle battalion in a division over 1 would cost a point.

This way a normal Pz division is 3 points, one for being a division, another point for its 2nd vehicle btn, and another point for its 3rd vehicle btn. A PzG would add up to 2, 1 for it being a division, and 1 point for its 2nd vehicle btn. One of those special or SS units would be 4 points because most of them have 4 vehicle btns, thus 1 for being a division and 3 points for their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th vehicle btns. Independent btns would still be 0, and the unusual divisions (like the Sturm infantry division) with one vehicle btn attached would still be 1 point. In other words, the 1st vehicle btn in a unit is "free" so to speak.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

[Rundstedt]

Sounds good to me, Ed. But why isn't attached units accounted for? F ex why do attached artillery regiments (most corps and armies had artillery units attached to their HQ's) count as 0 in stacking points? They also use roads, consume fuel and other resources. My suggestion is that attached units (AT-units and artillery regiments) should count as 1, "empty" divisions as 2, and then add 1 per each armored battalion attached to the specific division.

F ex, a corps with with one artillery regiment (1 point), and two divisions(4 points). One panzer division with two armored battalion (1 point each adds to 2 points) and one Pz. Gr. division with one armored battalion (1 point). The total stacking points would then be 8 points. Although, if these rules would be implemented, the rules for the stacking points would have to be altered too.

Regards, Rundstedt

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
Sounds good to me, Ed. But why isn't attached units accounted for? F ex why do attached artillery regiments (most corps and armies had artillery units attached to their HQ's) count as 0 in stacking points? They also use roads, consume fuel and other resources. My suggestion is that attached units (AT-units and artillery regiments) should count as 1, "empty" divisions as 2, and then add 1 per each armored battalion attached to the specific division.

F ex, a corps with with one artillery regiment (1 point), and two divisions(4 points). One panzer division with two armored battalion (1 point each adds to 2 points) and one Pz. Gr. division with one armored battalion (1 point). The total stacking points would then be 8 points. Although, if these rules would be implemented, the rules for the stacking points would have to be altered too.

Regards, Rundstedt

Good questions, I don't know why Gary did it that way. A vehicle battalion with 20+ shouldn't be "free".

[BrickReid]

Hi all,
Just poking my head in for a second. I always enjoy eavesdropping on your boards for the quality discussions on gaming and war history.

I'd like to point out that the Soviets also used Tank Brigades in their Tank and Mech Armies and that each brigade has 2 to 3 battallions of armor assigned. This is relevant because some of these units are over 200 tanks in strength by themselves. Doesn't seem right that they would only count as as many stacking points as a battallion.

I'd suggest looking at the archives and try to find a upper and lower limit to what was actually done. Find a mediun or average then adjust it upward by some amount generous to the amount of variation found. Otherwise give a big cushion. I'd also find a way to include the commander's rating if possible, in a big way.

I also believe, as an effort to be historically accurate, that the German Corps in general should have a greater number of stacking point available to them than Soviet Armies simply because of the German superiority in organization structure (and flexibility) and officer training / professionalism. That seems to me to be the case anyway.

It's hard to be perfect in creating a wargame. Especially when attempting to modify another's work. I'd just like to thank and congratulate you guys on doing a crackerjack job on WIR.