Upset for what?

[wworld7]

LOL

[wworld7]

In response to

Kablammo

[eMonticello]

ORIGINAL: pad152
There's historical accuracy and then theres game balance, if Witp was a true historical sim would anybody be happy.

The truth is in terms of game balance you can't have control over everything and then complain about historical accuracy.

Would anyone be happy if you only controlled Britian or US forces in the game, yet you were forced to spend half your time shipping stuff (supplies, oil, aircraft, troops) to the other allied forces even when you had no control over them?

There are a number of historical inaccuracies that were design decisions.

For instance, two reasons that the shipping was tight for the Allies in the Pacific was
a) the need for shipping in ETO/MTO and
b) the need to store stuff on ships in theater since the ports in the South Pacific had reached their capacity to unload stuff.

In the game, once shipping arrives, it's yours to keep. There's no mechanism that will take shipping away from you.

In 1943, Noumea had 20-30 ships waiting to be unloaded for an entire month. In the game, if 1,000 transports suddenly showed up at Noumea, they all unload at the same time.

Fortunately, many of these historical (and real-life) shortcomings can be reduced or eliminated by adopting house rules.

I believe that most folks are interested in the wildly historical (and real-life) inaccuracies that can't be addressed either through oob changes, scenario setups, or house rules.

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

.................

In the game, if 1,000 transports suddenly showed up at Noumea, they all unload at the same time.

............................

Not in my game. When 1,000 transports show up at Noumea the KB comes along a sinks 'em.[X(]

[Tankerace]

Courtesy of Kablammo!(tm).

Kills more than just subs dead.

[madmickey]

Tankerace, if Mitch Miller was alive he would want you on his show.

[Tankerace]

Hehehehehe. Oh well, enough Kablammo for now, must....finish....War Plan Orange.....

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

Tankerace, if Mitch Miller was alive he would want you on his show.

If Spike Jones were alive he would want him on his show too.

[Tankerace]

Only if I get to sing "Der Furher's Face".

"When da Furher says, we ist di master race, we Heil! Pffft Heil! Pffft Right in der Furhers face, not to love da Furher is a great disgrace, so we Heil! Pfft Heil! Pffft Right in der Furher's face!"

[DeepSix]

LMAO... toooo funny.

When Herr Goering says "They'll never bomb dis place"
Zieg Heil!
Zieg Heil!
Right in Herr Goering's face....

[Tankerace]

Are we not the supermen Aryan pure supermen
Ja we are the supermen (super duper supermen)
Is this Nutsy land so good
Would you leave it if you could
Ja this Nutsy land is good
We would leave it if we could

You know, Disney did a short of it, and used the music to it. Its funny too, like in this line, they have a helmeted German say "Are we not the supermen?" followed by Hirohito say "Aryan pure, supermen." Great stuff, I have the short on DVD, its classic.

They also have some other lyrics in the short, one talking about Hitler, saying "And what if one shell, should blow him straight to Hell, oh wouldn't that be swell!"

[Mr.Frag]

The amount of work put into this thread could have productively been redirected at multiple series of conclusive tests backing up your "whines" and perhaps actually get some action ...

Sad really, but thats why things don't change, everyone expects someone "else" to do the work and instead complains. You get what you are willing to put into things.

[Tankerace]

At least on the sub warfare (the butt of my Kablammo jokes) have been posted over and over and over since day 1, and we have been told working as designed. Their have been tests to nerf the DCs, but from what has been posted that only goes so far. That's why in WPO I am having to make my DCs almost nerf balls, just so subs have a chance.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The amount of work put into this thread could have productively been redirected at multiple series of conclusive tests backing up your "whines" and perhaps actually get some action ...

Sad really, but thats why things don't change, everyone expects someone "else" to do the work and instead complains. You get what you are willing to put into things.

What's sad is to find someone from development writing anything of this nature. The "testing" of the kind you speak to ought to have been done in alpha a couple of years ago. Quite apparently is was not. Nevertheless, the "testing" you refer to, your overtone aside, is in fact being performed in the best manner possible, right now, in the game, turn to turn, by experienced wargamers. The feedback from the most serious of these wargamers is that the model is not only broken in general but in some instances shattered. And don't even get me going on the bugs.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The amount of work put into this thread could have productively been redirected at multiple series of conclusive tests backing up your "whines" and perhaps actually get some action ...

Sad really, but thats why things don't change, everyone expects someone "else" to do the work and instead complains. You get what you are willing to put into things.

What's sad is to find someone from development writing anything of this nature. The "testing" of the kind you speak to ought to have been done in alpha a couple of years ago. Quite apparently is was not. Nevertheless, the "testing" you refer to, your overtone aside, is in fact being performed in the best manner possible, right now, in the game, turn to turn, by experienced wargamers. The feedback from the most serious of these wargamers is that the model is not only broken in general but in some instances shattered. And don't even get me going on the bugs.

You hit the nail on the head TJ. The game is just too big for the designers to have treated it like any other release. Design change should still be a part of this games dev process as heavy play has shown some serious drawbacks. Unlike fictional based games where resolution and outcomes can't be compared to anything, WITP is an historical game, actually an historical simulation as it has been advertised, so there are comparisons necessarily being drawn and in many cases the comparisons are far from favourable. This is not something which can be tossed out on the market a la Stephen King and seriously expect it to function and get rave reviews.

The game as is a great template from which to work with and improve upon with some continued effort, but as a finished product in the final stages of support it is sadly not. This should come as no surprise to anybody conscious of the fact that the scope of the game is just so HUGE. You can't pump out a twelve course meal in the time it takes to flip a burger.

[ChezDaJez]

IRL spotting subs was difficult as they generally were the hunters, not the other way around (at least until advent of major tech breakthroughs in radar, sonar, techniques, availability, and sheer number of platforms on which to carry these new devices). Subs had a lower profile than surface ships so generally sighted the enemy first on the surface, day or night. Submerged, submarines generally spotted surface ships first as well through use of hydrophones and their even further reduced profile (now down to a periscope!). At speed, it was near impossible for a surface ship to even know a submarine is in the area unless a pericope or periscope feather was noticed (required basically calm sea states, careless use of periscope, and incredible diligence and luck on the part of surface ships.

****

In WITP subs are not only easily detected but are like lambs at the slaugher as well. No evasion by sub is permitted if discovered. Subs can't even fire back. Simply, they just sit there and take it. Baaahahahahahaaa....

IRL subs generally avoided attacking ASW TFs, and because they were subs, were generally successful in doing so. If detected, subs were again generally successful at evasion unless in shallow, restricted waters or vs late war Allied escorts. When attacked, subs often fired defensively (the down the throat shot).

I happen to agree with you on this point, Ron. As a former acoustic sonar operator onboard the P-3C Orion with many an hour hunting submarines (and being quite good at it if I do say so myself), I can say chasing diesels are a pain.

Even today, like in WWII, the vast majority of diesel submarine detections are visual. During the war, at night surfaced subs could hear aircraft a long ways off and have a very good idea of its general movements and take appropriate action. And on those occasions when a sub must be on the surface in daylight, he will most often see you before you see him and in an emergency can go from fully surfaced to fully submerged within about 45 seconds. If there is any kind of chop on the sea, the aircraft probably wouldn't even recognize the swirl. But the general idea was for the sub to operate surfaced at night and submerged during the day when near enemy air bases.

Most WWII surface ships put too much self-noise into the water to ever detect an undamaged submarine passively at anything over 8 knots. A sub running silent is quieter than my daughter sneaking into her room after midnight (and she's damn quiet!) so the chance of detection is very slim passively without excellent locating data. A damaged sub can be tracked passively depending upon the type of damage.

Like you said, Ron, the game in no way even attempts this kind of modeling and it should have. It's not that difficult to do.

Someone else mentioned "play balance." Play balance is for a game. A simulation should let the chips fall where they would historically.

Chez

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

What's sad is to find someone from development writing anything of this nature. The "testing" of the kind you speak to ought to have been done in alpha a couple of years ago. Quite apparently is was not. Nevertheless, the "testing" you refer to, your overtone aside, is in fact being performed in the best manner possible, right now, in the game, turn to turn, by experienced wargamers. The feedback from the most serious of these wargamers is that the model is not only broken in general but in some instances shattered. And don't even get me going on the bugs.

The real problem was that they tried to hardcode far too much of WITP. A project this big was never going to give
up all it's quirks, bugs, and errors in any normal period of testing. Had the design crew admitted that in the beginning
and gone with more open-ended coding the real playtesting could have continued even after production and release.
As it was released, many of the problems and errors that have shown up in play keep running into the stonewall
of the coding. "We can't fix this without screwing up that." I admire 2by3 for biting off such a massive project,
but they were short-sighted in the way it was implemented. And it's led to frustration on both sides of the field.

[DeepSix]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

...Ja we are the supermen (super duper supermen)...

I was going to quote that line, but couldn't figure out how to convey the way it's delivered (in the version I have, at least) without being awkward or perhaps offensive.[:)] Haven't ever seen the short, or heard the shell/Hell lyric either!

[Mr.Frag]

Seeing as Ron never paid attention during Beta, let me clue you in to what he's not bothering to post. Sub handling is centralized into a couple variables. Easy to change. ASW & Sub handling has been changed in every single patch, contrary to TJ's posts who doesn't seem to be able to read Whatsnew.pdf. The very reason they were centralized was to make changes simple to do as it was understood from day one that things would require tweeking after release.

Feel free to continue to come up with excuses for something not being done, but in the end it belongs right in your lap. You want to blame someone else for you sitting on your arses, whatever. Typical cop out. Good thing the testers didn't operate like that or there wouldn't even be a game.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Seeing as Ron never paid attention during Beta, let me clue you in to what he's not bothering to post. Sub handling is centralized into a couple variables. Easy to change. ASW & Sub handling has been changed in every single patch, contrary to TJ's posts who doesn't seem to be able to read Whatsnew.pdf. The very reason they were centralized was to make changes simple to do as it was understood from day one that things would require tweeking after release.

Feel free to continue to come up with excuses for something not being done, but in the end it belongs right in your lap. You want to blame someone else for you sitting on your arses, whatever. Typical cop out. Good thing the testers didn't operate like that or there wouldn't even be a game.

Unlike you, I'm not going to make this a cheap and unwarranted shot. If it's so easy to change on the code end, then change it. It's off.[8D]