CHM - 100 day playtest

[bstarr]

I'm in the middle of March and, with the exception of two spawning issues, everything is running fairly well. Here's a few ideas and suggestions I've come up with along the way.

1) Darwin
Problem - Darwin's not a problem yet, but I can see where it will become a big issue in PBEM. In fact, it will actually reach the point where it's easier for Japan to hold it than it is for the allies due to supply. It's too simple to cut off completely with one wellplaced group of Betties.

Solution - create an automatic supply source at Daly Waters. A resource "factory" won't work, since Japan can bomb it. However, a small amount of supplies will enable the Allies to keep a constant garrison. It also need to be at Daly Waters instead of Darwin, so if JapPlayer gets cute and takes Darwin early, there's still a chance of getting her back. Don't give too much, though. You want to supply a small garrison, not a Sulawesi invasion force.

2) Japanese beaches - The added beaches help create realistic landings since you don't always have to land at the enemies strong points. You may want to add more beaches to some areas that could have been invaded, but weren't. Especially the Japanese homeland, but also India and the US. Maybe not Australia, though. Since so much of her mass is so remote.

downside - since every beach can become a 3,3 port this may open up a new avenue for abuse. (I wish there was a way to create a beach hex that could only upgrade to a 1,1 or so. Alas, more house rules may be the only answer.)

3) Speaking of beaches. French Frigate shoals should be a 0(0),0(0) beach not a 0(1),0(1). The largest islet is only a few acres.

4) Burma fell way too fast. Mogomi mentioned the issue of the railway to Burma in another thread. It's there late in the war, but not there in the beginning. I have a brainstorm idea that might work to solve at least the first month problem. (this one is a wild one, though) I've noticed that hexes belong to either allies, japan or neither. I wonder if it would be possible for andrew to work some majic and create a hex or two along the Burma/Singapore border that costs more points to enter when it belongs to neither player. That way the first time the railway is used it acts as a trail. After that it belongs to one player or the other and it acts as a railroad. If this is unfeasible just leave it as it is and use house rules.

5) Don needs to fix the TO&E database problems (see my above post). It doesn't seem to have caused any major damage to my game, but it seems like something that will be easy to fix for the next version.

6) upgrade Songkhia to a lvl 2 port. It takes damn near three weeks for the 5th division to unload. One time I actually broke through Alor Star with the ImpDiv before the 5th managed to get off the boats.


the good:
I love the new merchant ships. I think people who complain that it's too much micromanagment just don't get the game. WITP is all about micromanagment, and, with that in mind, I think Don’s merchant additions are the crowning jewel.

I love andrew’s map. A few have complained and Andrew replies “I’m no artist,” (it isn’t art – it’s cartography) I think he’s done an excellent job. Maybe it just reminds me of old wargame maps or something, but I honestly love the new map.

I also give a thumbs up to the offmap boxes. Panama sounds cool, but the real gem is on the other side of the world. Adan finally give the player something to do with all those Brit ships that usually just sit at Karachi. More divine micromanagement – I love it.

I also prefer the new art, especially the aircraft top views. The smaller art allows the fighters to look at least a little closer to scale with the bombers.


The bad:
With all the new ships there’s too much room for abuse. Many of the new ships (especially the Dutch ones and the British ships at Hong Kong) were scuttled before they ever fired a shot. Including them boarders on hypothetical. Might as well have included Settsu as include Utah and Soerabaja. It wouldn’t be so bad if the players were somehow bound to historic gameplay, but it’s just too easy for an allied player to evacuate all those Dutch ships to Australia and use them as escorts to reinforce Port Morsby and Guadalcanal. Dutch merchant vessels, fine – that’s historic. But most of the Dutch navy was scuttled or sunk. (counterpoint – the Japanese player uses unhistoric heavily escorted convoys in the beginning as well, so maybe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander).

I hate to agree with Oleg, but I would like to see more documentation - even at this early date. Not necessarily on the adjustments to the planes, but to the different aspects of CHM from ships to islands. Don has done a good job of keeping us posted in the threads, but not all of our playtesters are able to follow the dozens of threads we have going on this mod.

Here’s a cheat that’s going to rear it’s ugly head sooner or later. You know those nice little lanes that we use to direct shipping from the off map locations to the main board? Wouldn’t a couple of subs raise absolute hell in those lanes? Mercs will dodge a sub in the open sea, but in those lanes they have to pass right over them.

Overall –
The only downside is that, as it stands, it’s probably going to take several house rules to make the mod work for the competitive PBEMers.
I greatly prefer CHM to the main scenario, but I’m a historically minded HtH player. I think historically minded PBEMers will also find this mod a work of art. Hats off to Don, Ron, Mike, Andrew, all the artists, and all the playtesters. They've done an outstanding job so far.

[Don Bowen]

I'm currently vrey busy and will come back and address these items in more detail when I get a chance. Two immediate comments:

French Frigate Shoals: The U.S. did built an airstrip here - took over a complete island and from the air it looked like an aircraft carrier. Primarily an emergancy strip but also used to ferry short-ranged aircraft back and forth to Midway. Not sure if this rates the "1" in port but it leans that way for airfield.

The use of subs in the restricted sea lanes near Aden and Panama was discussed before we put them in. They serve to adjust the "distance" between these ports and on-map locations so are very useful. Submarines can indeed go into them but the allies can also concentrate ASW assets in them to the same benefit. This is open until more playtesting points us one way or another. Also, Andrew is making an alternate scenario without these ports.

I also replied to the TOE issue in the other thread.

Don

[eMonticello]

ORIGINAL: bstarr
The bad:
Here’s a cheat that’s going to rear it’s ugly head sooner or later. You know those nice little lanes that we use to direct shipping from the off map locations to the main board? Wouldn’t a couple of subs raise absolute hell in those lanes? Mercs will dodge a sub in the open sea, but in those lanes they have to pass right over them.

I suspect that using shallow water hexes would eliminate that problem.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

ORIGINAL: bstarr
The bad:
Here’s a cheat that’s going to rear it’s ugly head sooner or later. You know those nice little lanes that we use to direct shipping from the off map locations to the main board? Wouldn’t a couple of subs raise absolute hell in those lanes? Mercs will dodge a sub in the open sea, but in those lanes they have to pass right over them.

I suspect that using shallow water hexes would eliminate that problem.

With the current ASW model, any I boat in the "channels" is a welcome guest.[;)]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I'm in the middle of March and, with the exception of two spawning issues, everything is running fairly well. Here's a few ideas and suggestions I've come up with along the way.

1) Darwin
Problem - Darwin's not a problem yet, but I can see where it will become a big issue in PBEM. In fact, it will actually reach the point where it's easier for Japan to hold it than it is for the allies due to supply. It's too simple to cut off completely with one wellplaced group of Betties.

Solution - create an automatic supply source at Daly Waters. A resource "factory" won't work, since Japan can bomb it. However, a small amount of supplies will enable the Allies to keep a constant garrison. It also need to be at Daly Waters instead of Darwin, so if JapPlayer gets cute and takes Darwin early, there's still a chance of getting her back. Don't give too much, though. You want to supply a small garrison, not a Sulawesi invasion force.

I'm going to leave this one for Andrew. He's been struggling since day one to get an accurate representation of Darwin.

2) Japanese beaches - The added beaches help create realistic landings since you don't always have to land at the enemies strong points. You may want to add more beaches to some areas that could have been invaded, but weren't. Especially the Japanese homeland, but also India and the US. Maybe not Australia, though. Since so much of her mass is so remote.

downside - since every beach can become a 3,3 port this may open up a new avenue for abuse. (I wish there was a way to create a beach hex that could only upgrade to a 1,1 or so. Alas, more house rules may be the only answer.)

I like beaches - the more the merrier. In addition to the above, they allow places that did not happen to be important in the war to become important if the games happens to flow that way.

3) Speaking of beaches. French Frigate shoals should be a 0(0),0(0) beach not a 0(1),0(1). The largest islet is only a few acres.

Already tried to answer this one - might drop to 0/0 or perhaps leave airfield at 1??

4) Burma fell way too fast. Mogomi mentioned the issue of the railway to Burma in another thread. It's there late in the war, but not there in the beginning. I have a brainstorm idea that might work to solve at least the first month problem. (this one is a wild one, though) I've noticed that hexes belong to either allies, japan or neither. I wonder if it would be possible for andrew to work some majic and create a hex or two along the Burma/Singapore border that costs more points to enter when it belongs to neither player. That way the first time the railway is used it acts as a trail. After that it belongs to one player or the other and it acts as a railroad. If this is unfeasible just leave it as it is and use house rules.

I think there is already a fix underway for this. I've also seen some forum comments on South China??

5) Don needs to fix the TO&E database problems (see my above post). It doesn't seem to have caused any major damage to my game, but it seems like something that will be easy to fix for the next version.

I agree - we ought to get that lazy Don to do something!

6) upgrade Songkhia to a lvl 2 port. It takes damn near three weeks for the 5th division to unload. One time I actually broke through Alor Star with the ImpDiv before the 5th managed to get off the boats.

No opinion.

the good:
I love the new merchant ships. I think people who complain that it's too much micromanagment just don't get the game. WITP is all about micromanagment, and, with that in mind, I think Don’s merchant additions are the crowning jewel.

I love andrew’s map. A few have complained and Andrew replies “I’m no artist,” (it isn’t art – it’s cartography) I think he’s done an excellent job. Maybe it just reminds me of old wargame maps or something, but I honestly love the new map.

I also give a thumbs up to the offmap boxes. Panama sounds cool, but the real gem is on the other side of the world. Adan finally give the player something to do with all those Brit ships that usually just sit at Karachi. More divine micromanagement – I love it.

I also prefer the new art, especially the aircraft top views. The smaller art allows the fighters to look at least a little closer to scale with the bombers.

I agree.

The bad:
With all the new ships there’s too much room for abuse. Many of the new ships (especially the Dutch ones and the British ships at Hong Kong) were scuttled before they ever fired a shot. Including them boarders on hypothetical. Might as well have included Settsu as include Utah and Soerabaja. It wouldn’t be so bad if the players were somehow bound to historic gameplay, but it’s just too easy for an allied player to evacuate all those Dutch ships to Australia and use them as escorts to reinforce Port Morsby and Guadalcanal. Dutch merchant vessels, fine – that’s historic. But most of the Dutch navy was scuttled or sunk. (counterpoint – the Japanese player uses unhistoric heavily escorted convoys in the beginning as well, so maybe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander).

Yes and No - we left out a couple of dozen ships that were captured on the first day or two of the war. The ships at Hong Kong, like those at Manila and Tjilatjap, made a run for it and many made it. As for moving the Dutch fleet to Australia, it's too bad there isn't some sort of Political Point process for that. But it's no different in Scenario 15.

I hate to agree with Oleg, but I would like to see more documentation - even at this early date. Not necessarily on the adjustments to the planes, but to the different aspects of CHM from ships to islands. Don has done a good job of keeping us posted in the threads, but not all of our playtesters are able to follow the dozens of threads we have going on this mod.

I agree with the need for documentation but the simple and brutal fact is that I hate doing it and I am in this for fun. Perhaps it is time for me to turn over the reins to someone else.

Here’s a cheat that’s going to rear it’s ugly head sooner or later. You know those nice little lanes that we use to direct shipping from the off map locations to the main board? Wouldn’t a couple of subs raise absolute hell in those lanes? Mercs will dodge a sub in the open sea, but in those lanes they have to pass right over them.[1quote]This sword cuts both ways. Subs can lay in wait for merchants in the paths but ASW forces can also run right over those subs.

Overall –
The only downside is that, as it stands, it’s probably going to take several house rules to make the mod work for the competitive PBEMers.
I greatly prefer CHM to the main scenario, but I’m a historically minded HtH player. I think historically minded PBEMers will also find this mod a work of art. Hats off to Don, Ron, Mike, Andrew, all the artists, and all the playtesters. They've done an outstanding job so far.

I like it too - and it's only going to get better.

[Ron Saueracker]

Anot

The bad:
With all the new ships there’s too much room for abuse. Many of the new ships (especially the Dutch ones and the British ships at Hong Kong) were scuttled before they ever fired a shot. Including them boarders on hypothetical. Might as well have included Settsu as include Utah and Soerabaja. It wouldn’t be so bad if the players were somehow bound to historic gameplay, but it’s just too easy for an allied player to evacuate all those Dutch ships to Australia and use them as escorts to reinforce Port Morsby and Guadalcanal. Dutch merchant vessels, fine – that’s historic. But most of the Dutch navy was scuttled or sunk. (counterpoint – the Japanese player uses unhistoric heavily escorted convoys in the beginning as well, so maybe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander).

Yet another reason why naval units should/could have had HQ attachment requirement/restrictions as well.

[bstarr]

couple more minor things I didn't add since the original post was so long to begin with -

Here's when some of the important locations fell (I left out Rangoon since I've already discussed it above)

Wake fell on 12/27/41
Seemed a little too strong. It took three invasions. The second one included a two BB bombard force and a two CV support unit and I still couldn't crack the nut until I brought over a third landing force.

Hong Kong fell on 1/5/42
This one seems right on the money. It fell a little late in my game because the japs "rolled poorly." The higher fortification works wonders.

Singapore fell on 2/21/42
That railroad down the middle of Malaysia works wonderfully. It turns the flank of the Brits, forcing them to withdraw. Hats off to Andrew on this one.

Bataan fell on 3/12/42
A little early, but this may be because I fought more and withdrew less. If this is the case, then this is another success since it forces the player to play historically.

Soerabaja is still holding as of 3/15/42
Should fall within a week if I can get some artillery there soon. Java rolled up rather quick. After a quick landing, 2 Divs (2nd & 4th) supported by 2 Armored rgts, 2 eng rgts, and an HQ romped north to south kicking butt the whole way. I know very little about the Java campaign, so I don't know if this is historic or not.

China
Pretty quiet after a two month long massive Jap air campaign. Air war seemed better. AVG still outclassed Japs, but not by as much as before.

Subs & ASW
May post more on this elsewhere. More subs sank since my last test (I had the sub doctrine settings on before), but this actually balances with the tremendous amount of merchant shipping sunk. I'm going to hit the books (& net) but I think this is way over the actual amount sunk.

[Ron Saueracker]

I'll do the documentation as I said earlier. I could use some basics from Don and Mike (especially Mike as I've been in touch with Don throughout most of the process).

Don't expect point by point grognard detail though. Things done to the devices and such in the editor not readily apparent to the user will be detailed...OOB changes down to TOEs won't be. Was it provided by the official game? No...too much stuff. Do as you did with official game and dive in![:D]

[Lemurs!]

bstarr,

Thank you for the feedback.
We will probably not be changing Wake as several other feedbacks have shown Wake falling on the first or second day.

Mike

[Andrew Brown]

Hi bstarr,

Thanks for the comments! This is exactly the kind of feedback we need (and I need for my map).

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I'm in the middle of March and, with the exception of two spawning issues, everything is running fairly well. Here's a few ideas and suggestions I've come up with along the way.

1) Darwin
Problem - Darwin's not a problem yet, but I can see where it will become a big issue in PBEM. In fact, it will actually reach the point where it's easier for Japan to hold it than it is for the allies due to supply. It's too simple to cut off completely with one wellplaced group of Betties.

Solution - create an automatic supply source at Daly Waters. A resource "factory" won't work, since Japan can bomb it. However, a small amount of supplies will enable the Allies to keep a constant garrison. It also need to be at Daly Waters instead of Darwin, so if JapPlayer gets cute and takes Darwin early, there's still a chance of getting her back. Don't give too much, though. You want to supply a small garrison, not a Sulawesi invasion force.

That is a good idea. I have already been thinking that we were too severe in removing ALL of the supply generation capability from Darwin, and I was going to suggest that we add the 10 resources back again, but your idea is an interesting alternative.

Some additional food production was set up in the area during the war, so there is an argument that Darwin (or maybe Daly Waters) should have a small amount of supply generated locally.

2) Japanese beaches - The added beaches help create realistic landings since you don't always have to land at the enemies strong points. You may want to add more beaches to some areas that could have been invaded, but weren't. Especially the Japanese homeland, but also India and the US. Maybe not Australia, though. Since so much of her mass is so remote.

downside - since every beach can become a 3,3 port this may open up a new avenue for abuse. (I wish there was a way to create a beach hex that could only upgrade to a 1,1 or so. Alas, more house rules may be the only answer.)

Yes, that is a big downside. Also, I believe that any coastal hex - with or without a base - can be invaded anyway? Or am I missing your point?

3) Speaking of beaches. French Frigate shoals should be a 0(0),0(0) beach not a 0(1),0(1). The largest islet is only a few acres.

Don mentions that there was an airstrip built there. I guess it depends on what the maximum possible airfield size would be. A (0) means that it can grow to a 3, a (1) means that it can grow to a 4. Which would be a more accurate representation of the location?

4) Burma fell way too fast. Mogomi mentioned the issue of the railway to Burma in another thread. It's there late in the war, but not there in the beginning. I have a brainstorm idea that might work to solve at least the first month problem. (this one is a wild one, though) I've noticed that hexes belong to either allies, japan or neither. I wonder if it would be possible for andrew to work some majic and create a hex or two along the Burma/Singapore border that costs more points to enter when it belongs to neither player. That way the first time the railway is used it acts as a trail. After that it belongs to one player or the other and it acts as a railroad. If this is unfeasible just leave it as it is and use house rules.

Was this using the revsion 3 map or the revision 3b map? In the latest revision (3b) the "Burma Railway" has been removed.

6) upgrade Songkhia to a lvl 2 port. It takes damn near three weeks for the 5th division to unload. One time I actually broke through Alor Star with the ImpDiv before the 5th managed to get off the boats.

OK. It may be that Singora (Songkhia) needs to be upgraded a bit.

I also give a thumbs up to the offmap boxes. Panama sounds cool, but the real gem is on the other side of the world. Adan finally give the player something to do with all those Brit ships that usually just sit at Karachi. More divine micromanagement – I love it.

I agree with you pretty much. I don't like the idea of having LOTS of versions of the map, so it will be interesting to see who likes the new extensions and who doesn't.

The bad:
With all the new ships there’s too much room for abuse. Many of the new ships (especially the Dutch ones and the British ships at Hong Kong) were scuttled before they ever fired a shot. Including them boarders on hypothetical. Might as well have included Settsu as include Utah and Soerabaja. It wouldn’t be so bad if the players were somehow bound to historic gameplay, but it’s just too easy for an allied player to evacuate all those Dutch ships to Australia and use them as escorts to reinforce Port Morsby and Guadalcanal. Dutch merchant vessels, fine – that’s historic. But most of the Dutch navy was scuttled or sunk. (counterpoint – the Japanese player uses unhistoric heavily escorted convoys in the beginning as well, so maybe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander).

Maybe with the respawning problems there is a good case for removing a modest number of lesser ships, from both sides. Don will probably hate me for saying that(I also like the Allied respawaning rule).

I hate to agree with Oleg, but I would like to see more documentation - even at this early date. Not necessarily on the adjustments to the planes, but to the different aspects of CHM from ships to islands. Don has done a good job of keeping us posted in the threads, but not all of our playtesters are able to follow the dozens of threads we have going on this mod.

I agree. I want to contribute to making some more documentation myself, but a lack of free time has prevende me from doing so at the moment. I will do it when I have the time (but that may be a while).

Here’s a cheat that’s going to rear it’s ugly head sooner or later. You know those nice little lanes that we use to direct shipping from the off map locations to the main board? Wouldn’t a couple of subs raise absolute hell in those lanes? Mercs will dodge a sub in the open sea, but in those lanes they have to pass right over them.

As I have mentioned before - this cuts both ways. ASW TFs can also concentrate in the lanes. However, if the balance does tip too far in the subs' favour, then eMonticello made a very good suggestion - make the lanes shallow water to compensate.

[Tankerace]

I hate to agree with Oleg, but I would like to see more documentation - even at this early date. Not necessarily on the adjustments to the planes, but to the different aspects of CHM from ships to islands. Don has done a good job of keeping us posted in the threads, but not all of our playtesters are able to follow the dozens of threads we have going on this mod.

He who asks must do. Glad you volunteered bstarr! [;)]

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I hate to agree with Oleg, but I would like to see more documentation - even at this early date. Not necessarily on the adjustments to the planes, but to the different aspects of CHM from ships to islands. Don has done a good job of keeping us posted in the threads, but not all of our playtesters are able to follow the dozens of threads we have going on this mod.

He who asks must do. Glad you volunteered bstarr! [;)]

Actually, I'd be glad to help here. I've had a couple short stories published here and there, so writing is something I do from time to time. (keep in mind, I never said I was good at it. Just that it's something I do from time to time. I can spin a hell of a yarn, but my grammar is still straight out of the piney woods. [:D]).

edit added-
Ron would be a better choice for the task, but I'd be glad to help him.

[Tankerace]

I wonder if I should do some documentation for War Plan Orange.... uh-oh. I wonder how much a computer trained monkey costs.

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I wonder if I should do some documentation for War Plan Orange.... uh-oh. I wonder how much a computer trained monkey costs.

probably a lot more than a monkey who can only run the word processor. [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I hate to agree with Oleg, but I would like to see more documentation - even at this early date. Not necessarily on the adjustments to the planes, but to the different aspects of CHM from ships to islands. Don has done a good job of keeping us posted in the threads, but not all of our playtesters are able to follow the dozens of threads we have going on this mod.

He who asks must do. Glad you volunteered bstarr! [;)]

Actually, I'd be glad to help here. I've had a couple short stories published here and there, so writing is something I do from time to time. (keep in mind, I never said I was good at it. Just that it's something I do from time to time. I can spin a hell of a yarn, but my grammar is still straight out of the piney woods. [:D]).

edit added-
Ron would be a better choice for the task, but I'd be glad to help him.

Don't be surprised if you end up with the meat and are expected to use your word processing skills to make it all neat and tidy![;)] Thanks for the offer, bstarr.

[Spooky]

I am back from my holidays (it was too short !) so please feel free to send me any updated file for the mod !

[bstarr]

The Lancers are way to powerful.

Had two turns of Chinese sweep of 24 Lancers (skill 49) vs about 20 Oscars (skill 53). First turn 4 Oscars lost to 0 LAncer. Next turn Japs flew in 12 Oscars from a nearby base (skill 65). Even though they outnumbered and outskilled the Chinese, they still only damaged a few and lost 5 more Oscars. And I won't even go into detail on an earlier Lancer vs. Nate contest . . . it was gross.

If Lancers had been this good we would have used them. Their Maneuver and Durability is equal to a Warhawk, better than a Tomahawk.

I say reduce their Man to at least 30, maybe even 29.

Durability needs to be reduced as well. I'd say all the way to 28 in order to accurately reproduce the high number of noncombat loses.

* * *

And speaking of Chinese aircraft. The SB-2 (both chinese and soviet version) durability needs to be greatly reduced. The plane itself was structurally sound but it had a very bad habbit of bursting into flames after a hit to the fuel tanks. in game terms that should mean a low durability.

. . . 4/3/42 and still going.

[Don Bowen]

Don mentions that there was an airstrip built there. I guess it depends on what the maximum possible airfield size would be. A (0) means that it can grow to a 3, a (1) means that it can grow to a 4. Which would be a more accurate representation of the location?

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/HI/Air ... acific.htm

[Don Bowen]

Here's a better picture:

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I wonder if I should do some documentation for War Plan Orange.... uh-oh. I wonder how much a computer trained monkey costs.

Check this out [;)]

http://user.tninet.se/~ecf599g/aardasna ... /webpages/

EDIT: and this [:D]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/3013959.stm

I guess monkeys are outta question... [:D]

O.