CHM - 100 day playtest

[Tankerace]

Well crap.... Hmmm..... I know, I'll chisel it on papyrus and charge extra to translate it! [:D]

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Here's a better picture:

Uh . . . yeah . . . judging by that pic I'd say a 0(0) is in order. It can be made into a airfield, but it'll take some work. in fact, it may be an "Airfield" rather than a "base"! Think about it, they don't exactly have offloading facilities. This would keep some loon from making a size 3 port out of thin air (water, that is).

[Oleg Mastruko]

This goes to show that one man's 0(0)/0(0) is another man's 2(2)/1(2) or something [:D]

Actually I'd rate French Frigate Shoal 0/0 st start but 1/1 or 0/1, expandable to 4/4 or 3/4 with ENORMOUS effort.

Here's fine photo from the 60s. Not much changed from the WW2 days, in fact I think airfield was closed and abandoned in 46. I'd rate what we see on this photo as port 1, airfield 2. It's not THAT small. I've seen photos of C-130's landing and taking off the FFS.

SeaBee battallion "produced" the airfield by dredging coral. US Engineers could have produced aitfield out of nothing practically. They should have that ability in game too (Japanese too, if they are willing to "invest" 1000s of their engineers in some backwater).

Oleg

[Tankerace]

I just had the funniest image.

Its 1944, some Japanese fly boy sees that "American Carrier, Banzai!!!" and kamikazes into it. OOPSSS.

[Bradley7735]

bstarr,

There are problems when not allowing the port at a base that a ship can move into. It was called the Mannargudi bug back in 1.0 or 1.1. The TF's dissapear when entering a base that doesn't have a port (doesn't have a buildable port). All coastal bases should have at least a buildable port.

BTW, the US could have built a bigger port by sinking block ships to make an artificial harbor. I think this chunk of land could still get to a 3 port. The allies made ports off the Normandy beaches in a matter of a few days or hours. I think they could make something worthwhile at the FFS with enough time and effort.

I also think the sps of French Frigate Shoals airfield should be 1. This isn't the type of terrible terrain that limits airfield building. All they did was add fill to the island and pave it. They didn't have to drain a swamp, build on very soft land or level a mountain. Maybe it's just me, but I think most places on earth should be at least a sps of 1.

bc

[Oleg Mastruko]

I think a good "test question" when rating an atoll base should be: how would I rate a CV if it turned into an atoll?

So, how would you rate decent sized CV, Shokaku or Yorktown, if it turned into a "floating atoll", ie became stationary island?

I guess answers to this will differ considerably, here's how I'd rate them.

Port 1, airfield 3.

SPS 0, 1. Buildable (with enormous effort) to port 3, airfield 4.

Why?

Port 1. Well every CV had some cranes and derricks for loading/unloading aircraft, ammo, bombs, torpedos, food supplies... thus, port 1, at least.

Air 3. It had facilities to comfortably operate scores of dive and torpedo bombers with no penalties, which means at least level 2. In emergency, it could operate even a two engined light bombers (Doolittle raid) though not with full efficiency, so I'd say 3.

Installing some additional derricks, enlarging the hull somewhat on this stationary "island" etc. we could get port 3 and air 4.

Compared to a CV, FFS is like a really really large CV. Larger than Midway class CVBs. Yeah, an argument could be made that CV had workshops, hangars etc, but on the above photo we see FFS had some buildings, barracks etc. If needed, these facilities could easy be enlarged and made into something properly useful, to operate 100 aircraft from.

So even though it may look ridicioulus at first sight, I do think places like FFS should have air SPS of 1, buildable (with lots of effort) to 4. See that shallow area to the left on the photo I posted? I do not doubt USN engireers could make an "island enlargement" out of it, in case of need.

Oleg

[bstarr]

Oleg, Bradley & Don,
Makes sense, y'all. Consider me sold. (0)0 port, (1)0 airfield (or (1)1 airfield if it was built before the war) maxes out at 3,4 only with tremendous effort. With the new info, that sounds about right.
bs

[Halsey]

Now picture this!
100,000 troops dug in defending this parking lot. Ala WITP style![:D]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

Oleg, Bradley & Don,
Makes sense, y'all. Consider me sold. (0)0 port, (1)0 airfield (or (1)1 airfield if it was built before the war) maxes out at 3,4 only with tremendous effort. With the new info, that sounds about right.
bs

I agree at 0/0 port and 0/1 airfield. Unless Andrew disagrees I'll add it to the change list.

Don

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I agree at 0/0 port and 0/1 airfield. Unless Andrew disagrees I'll add it to the change list.

Don

Is that really a size 4 airfield in that picture? If so, then the problem is that any atoll or hex could be made into a size 4, and all 0/0 atolls/islands should be made 0/1 instead. That is if we want to be consistent.

It is not easy coming up with a generic scheme that fits all situations. I would have thought that 0/0 is more correct, but I am sometimes easily convinced otherwise.

[Don Bowen]

Actually I noticed that 0/0 and 0/1 would be a decrease - it was 0/1 and 0/1.

[Zeta16]

So where do you park aircraft on this field. How does this field service bombers since it is level four.

[Oleg Mastruko]

It can't now, I'd rate it at most level 2 as on photo. But it can be enlarged, hangars built etc. This what you see on photos was made practically out of nothing, it can be enlarged with proper effort.

O.

[bstarr]

I think we're looking at an emergency field.

I thought about that this morning, and I've reversed my opinion back to 0(0), 0(0). there's simply no way this single-short-strip-runway-only could have become a base to support medium bombers (which is what a lvl 4 can do). Where would you put the facilities? Where would the planes park? Storage? Sleeping Quarters for the pilots? The ground crews?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I think we're looking at an emergency field.

I thought about that this morning, and I've reversed my opinion back to 0(0), 0(0). there's simply no way this single-short-strip-runway-only could have become a base to support medium bombers (which is what a lvl 4 can do). Where would you put the facilities? Where would the planes park? Storage? Sleeping Quarters for the pilots? The ground crews?

You expand more by dredging up more seabottom.

A HUGE airport was created in a similar fashion at Bermuda out of almost nothing. The engineers dredged the bottom of the atoll and created an airfield that is large enough to comfortably land commercial airliners. Before the US arrived, there was a TINY island there (Bird Island). Now there is a huge airfield over once was mostly water. This was done in surprising short time in WW2. Before that, Bermuda was just a seaplane base.

I think Midways airfields (5000+ feet on one in East Island, and the ones on Sand Island appear far larger) were done in a similar fashion (at least in part).

French Frigate Shoals is an atoll, and the water here appears relatively shallow. Expansion could be done, with money, time and effort. This being only an emergency field, and a field used to transfer fighters - there was no pressing need to expand it as there was at Midway or Bermuda.

Again: It would take money, time and effort, but it could be done.

[bstarr]

But if we look at every location and say "engineers could have made an airfield with enough time, money and effort" then every land hex and maybe even a few shallow water hexes would be at least a (1)0 airfield. I think "enough time money and effort" equates to the ability to build it from a 0(0). It still can easily be built to a lvl one, which is probably a single strip with few facilities like we are looking at in the pics, within a month or two.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I think we're looking at an emergency field.

I thought about that this morning, and I've reversed my opinion back to 0(0), 0(0). there's simply no way this single-short-strip-runway-only could have become a base to support medium bombers (which is what a lvl 4 can do). Where would you put the facilities? Where would the planes park? Storage? Sleeping Quarters for the pilots? The ground crews?

I tend to agree - IF that is the best place that an airfield could have been constructed.

If the opposing argument is taken that with enough time and effort a larger field could have been built, that can apply to every hex on the map, so a 0(0) should never exist. I don't think we should go down that path.

[rtrapasso]

If the opposing argument is taken that with enough time and effort a larger field could have been built, that can apply to every hex on the map, so a 0(0) should never exist. I don't think we should go down that path.

Could one edit the hex value so that it had a NEGATIVE value, i.e. - (-2,-3) - so that you could with enough time and effort construct an emergency (1) airfield (but no port in this case)?

As for constructing an airbase/port French Frigate Shoals - i think if it had been CRITICAL, then they would have done it. As it was, it was not critical, so they didn't do it.

I have often wondered why the ratings are given for different locations. They are based on what happened historically, not what could be done, i think.

I.e. - i am somewhat familiar with some of the locations in the Hawaiian islands. Now, there is no reason that i can see that, for example, Kona, (Big Island) could not be a size 9 airfield. There was nothing there to prevent it - just a big flat lava field outside the town - no one around (in 1942). They could have made the airfield 10 times larger if they had chosen. The fact is, they DIDN'T do it historically, so Kona is given a small airfield in WITP.

This is fine as long as the game follows historical lines. But if the course of the game doesn't follow history, the game model starts to breaks down. The more it diverts from history, the worse the problem. See Snigbert's quote to Sonny.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I think we're looking at an emergency field.

I thought about that this morning, and I've reversed my opinion back to 0(0), 0(0). there's simply no way this single-short-strip-runway-only could have become a base to support medium bombers (which is what a lvl 4 can do). Where would you put the facilities? Where would the planes park? Storage? Sleeping Quarters for the pilots? The ground crews?

Yep, and a hop point for flights farther west by short legged a/c.

[bstarr]

The upcoming release of 1.5 has curbed my interest in my ongoing scenario, so I'll go ahead and give a little rundown. This may be the last. I'm not going to repeat anything I've already posted . . . except the first one.

1) My only major gripe is the Lancers. I like adding the plane, but it's stats need to be toned down big time. And if more air groups are added, Chinese skill needs to be lowered. You just think you’ve heard the JapFanboys complain; they'll wail like banshees if they start losing air superiority in China in early 42. I like the added planes and would prefer to stretch the Chinese forces to their historic size, but this needs to be countered by lower skill.

2) Also Lancers need to upgrade to P-40N. American units that upgrade to P-47s can be manually set to do so, but Chinese forces don't start with LAncers, so they can't be manually adjusted in the database. And the Chinese were equipped with P-40s late in the war (no P-47s that I know of, anyway).

3) Bangkok Maru has 4.7s fore, aft, and starboard. 7.7mm MG on the port side. Sounds wrong.

4) the arrival date of the 6th and 7th Australian Divs needs to be pushed forward to compensate for the fact that we now have to transport them from Aden.

5) There is 12000 oil at Panama, but I was unable to load it onto a tanker. (btw, Don, did you notice the two tankers who had reached New Zealand with Oil via the Panama Canal then west rout? I believe they had reached NZ by the date I gave you)

6) ABDAFloatilla spawns.

7) the Dutch Marines are able to load onto transports since they are connected to ABDAFlotilla rather than ABDA. Ditto some units in the Philipines.

8) I think there should be more Tomahawks in the pool to cover early loses. Surely there were more than twelve stockpiled if they came up with 100 to send to china. I’m also not sure if I like the idea of limiting end-production planes to 1 production. With 1.5 it’s no big deal, you can always downgrade. But without it there’s too great of a possilbity that a squadron could become depleted of planes and glued to one place while it waits forever for that one plane so they can transfer. Mechanics can always canibalize to put a few more in the air. [:D]

9) There should be more pilots in the Japanese pool to cover the odd pilot drainage that takes place at the start of the game, especially naval air pilots. Even with all groups set with replacements off, my naval air pool was completely empty before the carriers returned from Pearl. Any idea where these pilots went? Anyone remember if this took place in the old scenario15? I don’t think it did. I think adding 100 to each Jap pool should do the trick.

10) Ichang is just about impossible for China to supply. It stayed red 90% of the time, even before the Burma Road closed and put everything in the pink.

11) And I had an odd land engagement at Myitkyina. See if y’all can figure this one out. Several Jap divisions attacked Myitkyina and forced a retreat. However, not all of the allies retreated north toward their base. About half retreated west along the enemy held railroad. In fact, they retreated right into the hex occupied by a Jap Army HQ and the next hex in their path was occupied by another Jap Division! Lazy bastards didn't want to take that long jungle trail, they wanted to hop a train. [:'(]

bs