Barbarossa without Finland?

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 8:59 pm

could be a neat little feature thingy

moonfog · Post by **moonfog** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 9:02 pm

Originally posted by Svar:

Ed,

Moonfog may be referring to the first WIR. The version we refer to as the original is actually titled "Gary Grigsby's War in Russia" because "War in Russia" was already taken by the predecessor to "Second Front". All these titles were designed by Gary Grigsby and it seems to me in at least one of those earlier titles it was possible to cut the rail line from Murmansk and delay the Lend Lease supplies until the rail line was restored.

Svar

I just found the box of my old WIR. The game I have is also called "Gary Grigsby's War in Russia. A World War II Simulation, 1941-45". It's for PC with a copyright label from 1993. It seems to be the same as you guys refer to as the original. Think I remembered wrong on the Murmansk rail.

Moonfog

moonfog · Post by **moonfog** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 9:23 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
In the "you learn something new every day department": Have you gotten a hold of the World in Flames Demo yet? Their map of the whole world is very interesting. Specifically, it shows a 2nd rail line going to Murmansk from the east, and it shows Murmansk and Archangel are connected by rail. This could be why Gary never bothered with dealing with a cutoff of Murmansk. A cutoff could have happened by the fighting around Murmansk, but not by cutting any rail line further south (except Vologda). This also explains why the game reverts to supply level 5 on the rail line running south to Vologda, if Vologda is taken. Supplies from *both* Murmansk and Archangel could support troops to some degree along that line. Vologda is the key city then (Advanced Third Reich also has a rule about Leningrad *and* Vologda being held by the Axis), but the game doesn't handle a taking of Vologda either, Lend Lease supplies are unaffected even if Vologda is taken. It looks like *all* the issues and complications of everything north of Leningrad and Vologda are not handled by the game at all. Surely Gary can do better with WIRIII?

No, don't know the demo you mention. But I found that rail line you're refering to on a map in one of my WWII books. There, it is described as a "new relief railway". Perhaps the Soviets built that one after the Finns had cut the old rail near Petrosawodsk. So, the Lend/Lease equipment was redirected via Archangelsk. You're right with Vologda and at least we can hope that WIR III will solve that.

Moonfog

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 11:17 pm

Originally posted by moonfog:
No, don't know the demo you mention. But I found that rail line you're refering to on a map in one of my WWII books. There, it is described as a "new relief railway". Perhaps the Soviets built that one after the Finns had cut the old rail near Petrosawodsk. So, the Lend/Lease equipment was redirected via Archangelsk. You're right with Vologda and at least we can hope that WIR III will solve that.

Moonfog

I am not sure of when it was started, but the rail line from Archangelsk was completed after the war began. It seems like it may have been started before the war started, though.

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:19 am

And why don't you inform everyone of the fact that you got this information from me, since I was the one that presented it to the team.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Yes there was. Soviet flagged vessels sailed from the Western US to Vladivostok then the Siberian railway. Due to the limitations of the Siberian railway, the amount of supplies was not as signficant as the supplies coming through Persia. Aircraft were also shuttled to the USSR via Washington->Canada->Alaska->Siberia.

[ August 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:02 am

Originally posted by Don Shafer:
And why don't you inform everyone of the fact that you got this information from me, since I was the one that presented it to the team.

Its on the net Don, here is where I got it:

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/961230.html

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:24 am

Originally posted by Svar:

Ed,

Moonfog may be referring to the first WIR. The version we refer to as the original is actually titled "Gary Grigsby's War in Russia" because "War in Russia" was already taken by the predecessor to "Second Front". All these titles were designed by Gary Grigsby and it seems to me in at least one of those earlier titles it was possible to cut the rail line from Murmansk and delay the Lend Lease supplies until the rail line was restored.

You guys are confusing me now. The first version called just "War in Russia" was WIR-I which I played on my 8bit Atari in the late 80's. I don't know if it was available for the PC then, but I think it was. Is that the one you're referring to? That one is so old I can't remember any of the details about it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:25 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

You guys are confusing me now. The first version called just "War in Russia" was WIR-I which I played on my 8bit Atari in the late 80's. I don't know if it was available for the PC then, but I think it was. Is that the one you're referring to? That one is so old I can't remember any of the details about it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Ed,

That's the one and by the late 80's it was obsolete. It was inducted into the Computer Gaming World Hall of Fame in 1984. Gary come out with its replacement in 1990, Second Front. The current WIR is a remake of Second Front but they couldn't use the WIR title since it was already copyrighted. I don't remember much about it either because as soon as Second Front came out, I bought an Amiga 500 computer and SF. I played SF long after GG WIR came out because I didn't have a PC.

Svar

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 2:17 pm

Good old Seceond front.

I miss the yellow map colour for the summer and the way it used to crash if you missed the HQ or Army with your mouse when you were trying to interdict or bomb airfields.

I also had a game on the Commodore 64 which was based on the battles around Smolensk. It used to run on data cassette.

Mighty Muzrub the Fuhrer adopted son.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 2:40 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
I also had a game on the Commodore 64 which was based on the battles around Smolensk. It used to run on data cassette.

Oh man, Muzrub don't start this, please! I'm having flashbacks to my Atari days, waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, while the cassette tape loaded Telengard....

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 5:21 am

The original Second Front for the PC never had mouse support, but at least I couldn't make it crash by missing an HQ.

The soviets actually built a railway across the frozen Lake Ladoga (spelling??) every winter. They used this to keep Leningrad supplied. I think they used small ships/boats in the summer. That's why it is nearly impossible to isolate Leningrad.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 7:58 am

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
The original Second Front for the PC never had mouse support, but at least I couldn't make it crash by missing an HQ.

The soviets actually built a railway across the frozen Lake Ladoga (spelling??) every winter. They used this to keep Leningrad supplied. I think they used small ships/boats in the summer. That's why it is nearly impossible to isolate Leningrad.

And a pipeline to send in oil/fuel, which was vital to the city's survival.

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 4:57 am

Of course, everything on the net can be believed. Try to do some real research sometime. Perhaps then you can regain you're credability. I have a URL for a website that will emphatically state that the Germans killed no Jews, would you like it?

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Its on the net Don, here is where I got it:

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/961230.html