Chinese Air Force

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Well historical or not the allies in CHS already start with too many aircraft.[X(] The AI Japan playing CHS won't last 6 months and nobody will want to play PBM Japan!

Still looking at the Chinese and trying to find better data. It is not obvious from the data so far if all of these squadrons were active at one time.

Note that there will probably be no increase in available Chinese strength as of December, 1941. With approximately double the number of fighter squadrons and the maximum capacity cut in half, total strength will remain the same.

The current CHS (and Scenario 15) has an initial strength of 89 Fighters and 70 Bombers. There are 5 Fighter Squadrons with an absolute maximum of 120 aircraft and 5 bomber squadrons with a maximum of 90 aircraft. We are still looking but we will probably go to 12 fighter squadrons (max 12 = 144) and 6 bomber (max 12 = 72). We will probably pick up four more fighter squadrons when the 11th Group re-equips with P-66 - an additional 48 max. We've pretty much decided to leave out the 12th Group (Russian Bombers) as it never came into action and was disbaned during the war. The 26 Chinese A-29 will either come a few months early (to allow squadron level upgrade specifications) or else the squadrons flying them will be left with SB-2c. One or two additional Bomber squadrons might make it in - history permitting - so the bomber maximum might climb back to around 90.

And, let me end with a question: Does anyone have any data on the post-1941 transfers of aircraft from Russia to China??. Scenario 15 has replacement rates of 10/month for most of these aircraft.

[TheElf]

More aircraft in China just means more targets for the JAAF to practise with and gain EXP. [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

And, let me end with a question: Does anyone have any data on the post-1941 transfers of aircraft from Russia to China??. Scenario 15 has replacement rates of 10/month for most of these aircraft.

I'm light on aircraft sources, sorry.

[m10bob]

My dad worked at Allison's before Pearl Harbor here in Indianapolis,where the engines for P 40's and P 39's were manufactured.
For publicity,3 different models of the P 40 were parked out front on 10th street,an American version,a British version,and a Chinese version.
All were "topped-off" and started,and set for idle.The publicity was intended to show that the "American version",while costing more,was a distictly better "running" model..An unexpected result however was noticed.The American model ran out of AvGas 1st,then the British model,and the Chinese model was still running an hour later.This was later attributed to the different standards in required "tolerances",and on war fronts where getting AvGas to were it might be scarce,even a miniscule thing like those "tolerances" might have an effect.I can't say if it affected sales,(or the production line for that matter),as dad left Allison's after Pearl Harbor,but that demonstration was the grist for some local humor in those days..[:)]

[Andrew Brown]

And, let me end with a question: Does anyone have any data on the post-1941 transfers of aircraft from Russia to China??. Scenario 15 has replacement rates of 10/month for most of these aircraft.

As you know Don I have very little in the way of reference material. But this link is interesting (if you haven't seen it) although it doesn't have much in the way of numbers, especially post 1941:

Soviet Bombers in China

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

And, let me end with a question: Does anyone have any data on the post-1941 transfers of aircraft from Russia to China??. Scenario 15 has replacement rates of 10/month for most of these aircraft.

As you know Don I have very little in the way of reference material. But this link is interesting (if you haven't seen it) although it doesn't have much in the way of numbers, especially post 1941:

Soviet Bombers in China

Thanks Andrew - I found that while a-googling. It's one of several articles on the web that help but don't quite get into enough detail to work up an OOB. If one moves up a little to http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/otherres.htm there are a bunch of very interesting articles.

[pad152]

More allied aircraft?

Reguardless of what historical sources say about how many aircraft were where in the pacific at the start of the war, one thing thats missing here is the fact that over half of the aircraft became nothing more than spare parts in less than two weeks of operation, spare parts for aircraft were almost non-existant. Just read the accounts of the flying tigers in China.

If CHS is going to add more aircraft I would sugguest reducing AV support to reflect this, so after a week of flying operations one half to two-thirds of aircraft in a group is non-operational.

Think of AV support as spare parts for aircraft. Breaking up AV support units into smaller parts and forcing the player to ship them all over the pacific maybe a way to reduce the impact of too many aircraft in CHS and the lower levels of operational aircraft in the early part of the war.

[bstarr]

CHM seems to be historical accuracy first (thank god). I say increase the chinese OOB and planes historically available, but decrease the replacement pilot allotment. My little bit of research into this area leads me to believe that Chinese pilots (especially ftr pilots) were really that bad. There's a current tendency with revisionists to paint a politically correct theme over history, but, for whatever reason, chinese pilots really sucked. Decreasing the replacement allotment will force the player to play with pilots at 20 to 25 experience.

Also, I would decrease the starting experience of the chinese fighter groups. Leave the bomber groups as they are, though. And hunt down those pesky 90+ experience chinese pilots in the database and decrease them to a modest 60-70 points. Since they have a good 50 points better experience than others in their squadron they get all the kills and never get hit. I hate it when my leading ace is Chinese pilot C. Lo (I call him "Curtis Lo") with 10 kills in the first 2 months of the war.
bs

ps. also keep in mind that decreasing replacements will also ease the backlash from those Jap Fanboys who say we're too pro-allied.

edit added -
pps. this should fit historic accuracy like a glove. the planes and pilots historically available will be there, but they really won't be that useful.

[pad152]

s. also keep in mind that decreasing replacements will also ease the backlash from those Jap Fanboys who say we're too pro-allied.

It's too easy to switch China's airgroups to another command, I don't think decreasing just the pilots will resolve the balance issue alone.

[Lemurs!]

By late '41 the Russians had cut off virtually all aircraft replacements to China. They were not reinstated till the Communists were being supplied in '49.

You would think that with the numbers of aircraft, tanks etc that Stalin says were built that they would have plenty to give China but.... Stalin spoke for effect. He was weak when he needed something but strong when he wanted to show that Russia could match America's production.

It goes along with Mig-3s reaching 400mph and Soviet MGs on that silly 'fighter weapons of WW2' web site being better than every other fighter MG in the world.

Mike

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

By late '41 the Russians had cut off virtually all aircraft replacements to China. They were not reinstated till the Communists were being supplied in '49.

You would think that with the numbers of aircraft, tanks etc that Stalin says were built that they would have plenty to give China but.... Stalin spoke for effect. He was weak when he needed something but strong when he wanted to show that Russia could match America's production.

It goes along with Mig-3s reaching 400mph and Soviet MGs on that silly 'fighter weapons of WW2' web site being better than every other fighter MG in the world.

Mike

Yeah, what sites I can find are vague on supplies of Russian Aircraft by period. One source gives a total for the entire Sino-Japanese war of 322 Soviet bombers (292 SB, 24 DB-3 - which I believe are the IL-4, and 6 TB-3). I believe the Scenario 15 replacement rate is 15 aircraft/month total for soviet bombers. We might need to review the entire replacement set for the Chinese air force.

On a related subject, I've verified that the stated August, 1941 arrival of A-29 is indeed a typo. Should be 8/42. This won't work in the game as the Chinese would share in the Hudson pool. Either set up a new aircraft (for only 26??) or pretend the A-29 are SB-2.

[Lemurs!]

I would just call them SB2s. There are open slots available so you could add the plane as a Chinese only aircraft type.

up to you.

Mike

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: pad152

s. also keep in mind that decreasing replacements will also ease the backlash from those Jap Fanboys who say we're too pro-allied.

It's too easy to switch China's airgroups to another command, I don't think decreasing just the pilots will resolve the balance issue alone.

I think you may have missunderstood. If you decrease the replacement pool from, say, 10 to 5 any chinese pilots produced in month over an average of 5 per month would come in at 1/2 experience. And with the added demand of more squadrons to fill any allied player that tries to go on an unhistoric chinese air offensive would have to do so with an average pilot skill of 22.5. Being a jap player, I'm sure you have experience with units of such crappy skill level so I don't have to tell you how worthless they are. [;)]

Also, the allied player would have to spend a tremendous amount of time training the chinese. This is historic.

bs

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Yeah, what sites I can find are vague on supplies of Russian Aircraft by period. One source gives a total for the entire Sino-Japanese war of 322 Soviet bombers (292 SB, 24 DB-3 - which I believe are the IL-4, and 6 TB-3). I believe the Scenario 15 replacement rate is 15 aircraft/month total for soviet bombers. We might need to review the entire replacement set for the Chinese air force.

On a related subject, I've verified that the stated August, 1941 arrival of A-29 is indeed a typo. Should be 8/42. This won't work in the game as the Chinese would share in the Hudson pool. Either set up a new aircraft (for only 26??) or pretend the A-29 are SB-2.

I agree with your info on the number of Soviet bombers supplied to China (maybe using the same sources from the web). All of these were supplied by the end of 1941 and in most cases sooner. The Soviets did not supply China after that time as they did not want to antagonize Japan and make them change their mind not to attack north. All new aircraft supplied to China came from the US.

I agree that the replacement numbers for China need to be reviewed. It appears that the number of Soviet fighters supplied to China was only 583 of all types. I have not been able to break out numbers for each kind but the last shipment of fighters (I-153 and I-16) sent in early 1941 was 150 along with 100 SB-2. The current game lets you get 20 replacements or 900 for the whole war. It is similar with the bombers. It amounts to 450 SB-2 and 225 IL-4. As you pointed out they only received 24.

According to www.warbirdforum.com/dunnp66.htm, by early november, 1941 only the following aircraft remained in either combat or training units. 29 I-153s; 27 I-16s; 60 SB-2s and 42 other a/c. This makes the Chinese even smaller than the game shows, especially in fighters.

I show the following figures for the US planes supplied to China.

P-43 -- 108 sent to Karachi for assembly and transfer. The Chinese acknowledge receiving 41 by the end of 1942 and maybe a few more. It is possible that no more than 50 total were ever sent to the Chinese according the www.warbirdforum.com/richarddunn.pdf and there seemed to be 28 in Chinese stocks by May 45. The remainder were scrapped in India and their engines used for C-47 and C-53. Tremendous attrition due to Chinese inexperience. A report in July 1942 said that of 35 planes received in Kunming, 4 crashed, 17 damaged in landing and only 14 operational.

P-66 -- 129 ordered but I believe only 104 made it to Karachi. The rest were lost in transit. I show 70 still on the books in May 45.

P-40 (E and N) -- 377 Beginning in Sep 42

P-51D -- 50 beginning Jan 45.

F-5E -- 15 beginning Mar 45.

A-29 -- 28/9 beginning Apr 42.

B-25J -- 131 beginning Aug 43. I would like to see this be the clear nose version as I don't believe the strafer was used in China.

C-47 -- 77 beginning Jun? 42

C-46 -- 23 beginning Jan 44

Some of the start dates are guesses. If not clear in the research then I put a date 6 months from US production. The new stuff would not go to the Chinese first.

I would prefer that we produce an A-29 in Chinese markings for the 28/9 a/c instead of adding to the SB pool if there is room. Two reasons, I think the A-29 is a more versatle a/c and if they are only added to the pool may not be around to create the new squadron.

[Don Bowen]

Thanks - I'll save this data. I've been distracted from the Chinese airforce by the re-spawn problems and now the pending release of V1.5. I'll use this data when I get back to it.

Don

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I am in favor of using Squadrons. Often times Chinese groups consisted of several different types of aircraft. having 4 different sqdns each with potentially different A/C types would best emulate the patchwork nature of a CAF Group. This would give players flexibility to manage the limited A/C support available to the CAF.

Additionally CAF Base Forces are structured to support the typical 30 A/C. One of two things are possible.

1. leave them set to 30 and further simulate the lack of proper maintenance practices and know how.

2. Set them to 40 A/C Support, effectively 1 group/Base Force. Attrition and lack of supply in China may be enough to cause the disrepair that was common in CAF units

I would leave the AV support at 30. From looking at some of the web sites in this thread, squadrons of the various groups were not stationed, necessarily at the same site.

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thanks - I'll save this data. I've been distracted from the Chinese airforce by the re-spawn problems and now the pending release of V1.5. I'll use this data when I get back to it.

Don

I can understand the distraction with the respawn problem.

I would recommend that separate slots for the Chinese for all except the F-5E. If not, I think it could be too easy to exploit and use the Chinese AF in a much greater role than they were. I think there is room enough near the Russian slots.

Question on the Chinese I-16. Should this be the same version as the Russian I-16, type 24. This was the last variant and the only on with the 2 20mm guns. Considering that this was still considered a front-line a/c would this version be exported to China? I would think more than likely they would be the type 18 or earlier version. The big difference is firepower. All the other versions only have 4x7.62mm. That is quite a difference in firepower. In game terms it is a GV of 12 to a GV of 8 vs many of the Japanese fighters in that area only being a GV of 4. Unfortunately I have come across nothing on the web that detailed what version was sent to China.

I generally agree with your suggestions regarding the number of Chinese squadrons.

BOMBER

1 BS -- IL-4 -- Upgrade to B-25J
2 BS -- SB-2 -- Upgrade to B-25J
3 BS -- SB-2 -- Upgrade to B-25J
9 BS -- SB-2 -- Upgrade to A-29 -- Upgrade to B-25J
11 BS -- SB-2 -- Upgrade to B-25J -- While it should upgrade to A-29, not enough planes in game to do that. This was the last sqd to upgrade to A-29 so leave it to upgrade to B-25.
30 BS -- SB-2 -- Upgrade to A-29 -- Upgrade to B-25J

I would make the B-25J a clear nose instead of the strafer model that the CHS now has.
Begin in Aug 43 with a Build Rate of 5 and a pool of 11.

A separate A-29 plane with Chinese markings. Begin in Aug 42 with a pool of 28/9.

TRANSPORT

77 C-47 and 23 C-46 were shipped to the Chinese to form a Transport Group between 1942 and 1945. There are no dates available or any squadron numbers that I could find. So I would create 4 squadrons.


C-47 Build Rate = 1, pool 39 beginning June 42. All squadrons begin in Dimapur. Normal upgrade is to C-46.
C-46 Build Rate = 1, pool 3 beginning Jan 44.
Alternately, you could use the existing slots and not create separate ones for the Chinese. Very little to gain by bringing in the C-46 early.

31 TS -- Create June 42
32 TS -- Create June 42
33 TS -- Create Jan 43
34 TS -- Create Sep 43

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

........ I hate it when my leading ace is Chinese pilot C. Lo (I call him "Curtis Lo") with 10 kills in the first 2 months of the war...........

Lo Chi: (shared) 2nd highest scoring Chinese ace of WW2 with 11 confirmed. So if ya get him to ´45 with just 1 more victory you are right on the historical track. [:)]

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thanks - I'll save this data. I've been distracted from the Chinese airforce by the re-spawn problems and now the pending release of V1.5. I'll use this data when I get back to it.

Don

FIGHTERS

I would add slots for all the Chinese fighters so one could not take advantage of the P-40 and P-51 pools and increase the effectiveness of the CAF.

7 FS -- I-153 -- Upgrade to P-66
8 FS -- I-16 -- Upgrade to P-66
17 FS -- I-153 -- Upgrade to P-66
21 FS -- I-153 -- Upgrade to P-43
22 FS -- I-153 -- Upgrade to P-43
23 FS -- I-16 -- Upgrade to P-43
24 FS -- I-16 -- Upgrade to P-43
26 FS -- I-153 -- Upgrade to P-40E
28 FS -- I-153 -- Upgrade to P-66
29 FS -- I-16 -- Upgade to P-40E
32 FS -- I-16 -- Upgrade to P-66

Alternately you could just have the I-153 upgrade to the P-43 and the I-16 to the P-66

This is the initial group 5 sqd with I-16 and six with I-153. Assuming that we go with 29 I-53s available at the beginning of the war, this would put only 4-5 planes in each squadron and no pool or maybe equip a couple of full squadrons and keep the rest with only a few planes in the back cities. With only 27 I-16 this would put only 5-6 planes in each squadron and no pool.

Agree with creating the following on Sep 42 in Karachi.
41 FS -- P-66
42 FS -- P-66
43 FS -- P-66
44 FS -- P-66

P-66 and P-43 would upgrade to P-40E which would upgrade to the P-40N and upgrade to the P-51

Based on the abysmal Chinese training accidents, I have assumed the pool of P-43 and P-66 are 80 each, losing around 20 to accidents.
P-43 availability Mar 42. Factory in US producing 6 beginning March 42, pool 38.
P-66 availability Sep 42. Factory in US producing 6 beginning Sep 42, pool 38.
Note: If you want to go with the original 100+, then just add a Build Rate of 1 to each.

P-40E availability Oct 42. Factory in US producing 6 beginning Oct 42 and another one in Apr 43.
P-40N availability Oct 43. Two Factories in US producing 12 beginning Oct 43, Build Rate = 1.
This will produce around 100 P-40E and 280 P-40N,

P-51D Build rate of 6, pool of 8 beginning Jan 45.

RECON

12 RS -- F-5E Created Mar 45

The 12th squadron was orignally a mixed group of fighters and bombers disbanded in 1943 and reconsitituted as a Recon squadron in March 45. I would use the existing pool in the game instead of creating a separate slot.

Thank you for considering this.

[Don Bowen]

As soon as the V1.5 fixes are in I'll try and get my head wrapped around the Chinese Air Force again. It is just too strong!

I don't know how many new aircraft we will be able to create for the Chinese. The A-29, with less than 30, is a possibility (after all, we already have several with around that number or less). However, there are only about 10 empty data slots and maybe half that in bitmap slots and many potential aircraft contesting for them.

I've totaled the aircraft of the Chinese Air Force as of December 7, 1941 and the totals are not all that bad. I-16c is much higher and the IL-4c (called DB-3 in most reports) are questionable. However, given differences in reports and some allowance for small numbers of other aircraft still existing, I think we can probably leave it as it is.

What little reference I have seen to the the 100 cargo aircraft indicates they were used alongside US cargo planes in flying the Hump. I've never been able to identify a squadron that flew them. Do you any reference for the four transport squadrons you listed (31-34th). At least one of these was a P-66 fighter squadron (32nd).

We need to address several issues:

• Squadron Size - most were 9 aircraft, not 16 or 24. We'll probably settle on 12 as a compromise of reality and functionality (there were some aircraft at group level, we can pretend these were allocated to squadrons).
• Russian Aircraft Replacement - it appears that no Russian aircraft were transferred after the war began. Replacement rates need to go to 1 (allowance for repairs)
• US Aircraft - we've added P-43 (both US and Chinese Service) and P-66. I don't know if we can manage Chinese A-29, B-25, and P-40. If we can NOT fit in special versions of these aircraft we have the option of adding to the replacement rate of SB bombers to compensate for the A-29s and using US B-25 and P-40 (and F-5).
• Losses in Transit - for U.S. aircraft this may be done by forming low quality squadrons at Karachi and letting operational losses mount. Losses enroute Karachi (like the cargo of fighters lost on a torpedoed freighter) should not be represented unless we want to form the squadrons at Aden and let them brave torpedo waters to get to Karachi.
• Chinese Pilot quality - the Chinese Air Force had been decimated by 8 years of war and almost all of their experienced pilots lost. High loss rates (training and combat) are mentioned in all the histories - how do we best simulate that??

All in all the Chinese Airforce is too strong in the game. We may not be able to completely correct this, especially if use of U.S. aircraft types allows an unlimited replacement pool, but we will do something. We will also probably leave out some of the marginal Chinese squadrons - the Chinese tended to place all of an aircraft with squadrons and losses soon reduced these to shells. As an example, with about 28 (or 29?) U.S. A-29 Hudsons the Chinese formed three 9-plane squadrons.