Chinese Air Force

[Ron Saueracker]

I agree from my readings lately as well Don.

[bstarr]

Chinese Pilot quality - the Chinese Air Force had been decimated by 8 years of war and almost all of their experienced pilots lost. High loss rates (training and combat) are mentioned in all the histories - how do we best simulate that??

I've been tossing this subject over for some time and have a couple of suggestions.

1) reduce the pilot availible replacement pool to 0. This means every replacement pilot coming in will be at half skill. This may seem like overkill, but keep in mind that they will still have better skill than Jap pilots arriving in 44-45. Also, the Allied player can still train these units all the way up to 60 skill. Which is also realistic, since; we did spend a lot of time training the Chinese pilots.

2) Reduce the durability of all Chinese-only or Chinese-mostly (ie, the Lancer, hehe) aircraft. This not only greatly increases the damged-to-destroyied ratio, but I think it also increases operational loses.

3) I would also reduce the skill of Chinese fighter squadrons. One of those net sources you sent me mentioned that their fighter pilots didn't fair well at all in the early stages of the war. I think even the 45 skill they currently have is overoptimistic. 25 to 35 would be more realistic.

4) reduce the skill of the Chinese aces in the database. It's not their high skill that's a problem, it's the difference in their skill and the overall skill of their group that causes a problem.

[Lemurs!]

I agree wth Bstarr on this. The Chinese airforce was pretty much at its peak between '37 and '39. By 1941 there was virtually no airforce and their supply of Soviet trained pilots was gone.
The experienced pilots from earlier years had been slaughtered between '39 and '41 by Nates, Claudes and Zeros.

Get rid of the pool pilots and lower the quality of the Chinese named pilots.

Mike

[Don Bowen]

Here is all the data on Chinese Pilots in CHS. Suggestions for changes welcome.

[bstarr]

Don,
Pool: 0
Starting Experience: 30ish
Replacement Rate: 0

As for the individual pilots, I'd say subtract twenty to thirty points.

Speaking of pilots. You've probably been staring at the database until your eyes are crossed. If you need someone, I'll be glad to switch all the pilots from moved squadrons back to their correct locations when we get to that point.
bs

[Herrbear]

No I just created the 4 squadrons for the Transports. I have nothing to base the numbers on.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

of pilots. You've probably been staring at the database until your eyes are crossed. If you need someone, I'll be glad to switch all the pilots from moved squadrons back to their correct locations when we get to that point.
bs

Thanks - but I do it with SQL.

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Here is all the data on Chinese Pilots in CHS. Suggestions for changes welcome.

Without knowing the amount of kills for these Chinese pilots, I an assuming they have scored somewhere between 5 to 12 kills. Why should they be treated any different than other pilots in the game with similar kills? If the skill level for them is too high then it is too high for any pilot with similar kills.

QUESTION ON EXPERIENCE FOR CHINESE PILOTS

Currently the experience level from Year 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946
China 45 45 45 50 50 55

If for instance China experience starts at 35, will the numbers be 35 35 35 40 40 45?

I can see eliminating the Chinese pool of pilots but not the experience level. I also would lower the replacement level only to 9 instead of 10. This represents US trained pilots of which 384 were returned to China and participated in combat. Nine a month gives you 387 pilots. By eliminating the pool, most Chinese replacements will be in the 22ish range, which, as the manual states, is less than "a hastily trained pilote".

This site gives a few more Chinese aces. http://www.1000pictures.com/aircraft/aces.htm#China

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: bstarr

of pilots. You've probably been staring at the database until your eyes are crossed. If you need someone, I'll be glad to switch all the pilots from moved squadrons back to their correct locations when we get to that point.
bs

Thanks - but I do it with SQL.

Not sure what SQL is, but more power to you. [:D] Seriously, if you need any help with any of the non-thought-type entering-of-the-data let me know. I can probably handle some of the the square peg, square hole stuff as long as the blocks are also color coordinated. [;)]
bs

[Don Bowen]

I have accepted the Scenario 15 numbers for Russian Aircraft in the Chinese Airforce as of December 7, 1941 but have reduced the replacement rate for ALL the aircraft to 1:

• 36 I-153c
• 53 I-16c
• 14 IL-4c
• 56 SB-2c

This reflects a somewhat higher total of available Russian-type aircraft than many histories suggest but I have decided to accept it for two reasons: I can not come up with any 100% accurate numbers and it provides some allowance for miscellaneous types on hand.

I am also tentatively adding the Chinese A-29 with an 8/42 availability date, 26 aircraft in pool, and a replacement rate of 1. Not sure if this will hold! For now I’m using the Hudson icon. If we do not use a specific Chinese A-29 the best alternative that I can come up with is adding 2-dozen SB-2c to the pool.

The other U.S. aircraft used by the Chinese Air Force will be standard U.S. types – which will tend to give the Chinese the ability to over-expand. Don’t like this but it’s a place to start and the alternative is to use up almost all the remaining aircraft slots for the CAF.

I have reviewed the squadrons with the best information that I could find, added some guesses, estimations, and a little magic and came up with a total of 21 squadrons. I have omitted several marginal squadrons that actually existed as the number of available aircraft will not support them. This represents a net increase of 9 squadrons (compared to the previous release of CHS) but each squadron is smaller (set at 12 aircraft instead of 16/24). Should be 9 per squadron but that is a little too small and there were some additional aircraft at group level. Also we are starting to run out of airgroup slots without impinging on those used by divided groups.

• 5 Squadrons equipped with I-16c
• 4 Squadrons equipped with I-153c
• 3 Squadrons appear 3/42 with P-43
• 4 Squadrons appear 9/42 with P-66
• 1 Squadron with IL-4c
• 3 Squadrons with SB-2c (one upgrades to A-29)
• 1 Squadron appears 8/42 with A-29

Review by aircraft type:

• I-16c: 53 aircraft available 12/41, 45 total with 5 squadrons, 8 in pool, replacement
  rate 1.
• I-153c: 36 aircraft available 12/41, 32 total with 4 squadrons, 4 in pool, replacement rate 1.
• P-43. 108 aircraft available from 3/42 for China. Aircraft available 12/41. 44 equip 2 U.S. Squadrons at the beginning of the war, 60 are placed in the pool and replacement rate set to 1. Concurrently the two U.S. squadrons will have their upgrade path changed from P-38G to P-38F to allow earlier release of their P-43.
• P-66. 129 aircraft available from 8/42. Set with all aircraft in pool and a 8/42 arrival, replacement rate of 1. Four squadrons created with this type will appear in Karachi.
• SB-2c. 56 Aircraft available 12/41, 36 total with 3 squadrons and 20 in pool, replacement rate 1.
• Il-4c. 14 Aircraft available 12/41, 9 with 1 squadron and 5 in pool, replacement rate 1.
• A-29. 26 Aircraft available 8/42, with 26 in pool and replacement rate 1.
• P-40 and B-25: No changes, various aircraft upgrade to these, using U.S. Types.

Notes by Group:

• 1st Bomber Group: Only bomber group active for entire war. Two squadrons implemented with a mixture of SB-2c and Il-4c.
• 2nd Bomber Group: Two squadrons implemented, this group historically was re-equipped with A-29 then apparently disbanded when it ran out of aircraft. Only one squadron will upgrade to A-29 in CHS.
• 3rd Fighter Group: 3 Squadrons implemented, flying I-16c at start of war with upgrade to P-66.
• 4th Fighter Group: May have been out of existence 12/41. Was historically formed/reformed 3/42 with P-43. We have 1 squadron active 12/41 with I-153 due to a historical reference in 1941 – other three appear 3/42 with P-43.
• 5th Fighter Group: 3 Squadrons available 12/41 with a mixture of Russian fighters. Historical upgrade of one of these squadrons to P-66 ignored.
• 6th Group: apparently disbanded pre-war due to lack of aircraft.
• 7th Group: apparently disbanded pre-war due to lack of aircraft.
• 8th Bomber Group (later Composite): Only included one squadron due to A-29 equipment in 1942.
• 9th Group: No data.
• 10th Group: No data.
• 11th Fighter Group: Formed late 1940 but re-formed 9/42 (??) and equipped with P-66.
• 12th Bomber Group: Actually formed 1/41 with Russian equipment but never came into action and disbanded 1944.

So, here is a squadron by squadron review and my tentative decisions:[ol][*]1st Bomber Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chengtu with 12 IL-4C (remaining two in pool). This is based largely on Scenario 15.
[*]2nd Bomber Squadron: Available 12/41 at Hami with 12 SB-2c. Hami in the last base at which I can definitely place this unit.
[*]3rd Bomber Squadron: Omitted. At Chengtu in Scenario 15 but I can find no reference to it having been in action. This was the 3rd Squadron of the 1st Group and may have been used for training.
[*]4th Squadron: Omitted. I found absolutely no references for this unit. It may have been a training or replacement unit for the 1st (Bomber) Group.
[*]5th Squadron: Omitted: This unit was placed in Chungking in Scenario 15 but I can find no justification for it’s existence..
[*]6th Bomber Squadron: Omitted. Unit was disbanded 1/42.
[*]7th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Hami with 9 I-16c, will upgrade to P-66
[*]8th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Hami with 9 I-16c, will upgrade to P-66
[*]9th Bomber Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chungking with 12 SB-2c, will upgrade to A-29
[*]10th Squadron: Omitted, unit was disbanded 1/42
[*]11th Bomber Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chengtu with 12 SB-2c.
[*]12th Composite Squadron: Omitted (strongly considered having appear late in the war as a recon squadron)
[*]13th Bomber Squadron: Omitted, no references after 1937
[*]14th Squadron: Omitted, no references.
[*]15th Squadron: Omitted, no references.
[*]16th Fighter Squadron: Omitted, disbanded 1939.
[*]17th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Kunming with 11 I-153, upgrades to P-66.
[*]18th Fighter Squadron: Omitted, no reference after 1939.
[*]19th Bomber Squadron: Omitted, no reference after 1939.
[*]20th Squadron: Omitted, no references.
[*]21st Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chengtu with 7 I-153, upgrade to P-43
[*]22nd Fighter Squadron: Appears 3/42 with P-43 (probably existed 12/41 but with few aircraft)
[*]23rd Fighter Squadron: Appears 3/42 with P-43 (probably existed 12/41 but with few aircraft)
[*]24th Fighter Squadron: Appears 3/42 with P-43 (probably existed 12/41 but with few aircraft)
[*]25th Fighter Squadron: Omitted, no references after 1940.
[*]26th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Lanchow with 9 I-16c.
[*]27th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chungking with 7 I-153c, possible historical upgrade to P-66 ignored.
[*]28th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chengtu with 9 I-16c, upgrades to P-66
[*]29th Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chengtu with 9 I-16c.
[*]30th Bomber Squadron: Appears 8/42 with A-29
[*]31st Squadron: Omitted, no references.
[*]32nd Fighter Squadron: Available 12/41 at Chengtu with 9 I-16c, upgrades to P-66.
[*]33rd thru 40th Squadrons: Omitted, no references.
[*]41st Fighter Squadron: Appears 9/42 at Karachi with P-66.
[*]42nd Fighter Squadron: Appears 9/42 at Karachi with P-66.
[*]43rd Fighter Squadron: Appears 9/42 at Karachi with P-66.
[*]44th Fighter Squadron: Appears 9/42 at Karachi with P-66.
[/ol]
I’ve not yet tackled pilots but I note several good ideas in this thread. Replacement should account for U.S. trained pilots but not sure how many. Don’t know when they actually began arriving in China and I assume the game’s replacement rate begins 12/41. Perhaps cutting the replacement rate in half (to 5) would be reasonable??. A reduction in experience seems in order (from 45 to maybe 35??) but this would appear to negate the value of the U.S. trained pilots (who should be somewhere near U.S. values??). Oh, and I do not understand why the Chinese Aces should have their values changed – can someone enlighten me??

[Bradley7735]

Hi Don,

Well, all I have to say about this is that the detail and effort you have here is awesome. This is probably as close as you can get to an exact historical picture of the Chinese airforce OOB.

Ok, with that said, I'll comment on some of the non-OOB issues.

1: How can you have planes in the pool that come in after 12/41? If you have, say, 30 P-66 in the pool, but the plane becomes available on 3/42, couldn't the player upgrade any existing group in 12/41 with what's in the pool? (note, my example numbers are just pulled out of the air, I didn't want to look down and quote exact figures) I'm not saying that it won't work because I haven't tested it. It just seems like planes that are available later don't have any pool amounts in the stock scenario. I'm not sure how to fix this, if it allows groups to be upgraded in 12/41. Maybe put the pool at 0 and increase production by some amount. (although, this will give them too many planes in the long run.) Also, it may not be worth worrying about it as the planes and pilots may not survive long enough to really matter (as they should).

2: when looking at replacement pilot experience, there are two things to consider. The number of trained pilots you get each month and the pilots that come in with new groups. The experience by year that's in the editor is used for one of these types. I don't know which type, but it's only one. I think it's for the pilots that come with a new group. I'm pretty sure that the trained pilots you get each month are hard coded and all nations have the same exp value. I don't know what you should do with starting exp and number of pilots. 5 seems pretty low, but if you're trying to get 25-35 exp, then you'll have to go low.

3: chinese aces: I think that lowering the ace values will tend to give the replacements more of an average exp. If some aces have 90 exp, then the computer has to put some 20 exp pilots to balance it out. If the aces have 60 exp, then the computer puts in 35 exp pilots to compensate. You get a better average group, instead of a few great pilots and the rest so inexperienced that they can't even land a plane. This is my interpretation on the subject. Whether it will work that way or not is unknown to me, since I don't have much knowledge on replacement pilot logic with the game anyway.

[bstarr]

I have accepted the Scenario 15 numbers for Russian Aircraft in the Chinese Airforce as of December 7, 1941 but have reduced the replacement rate for ALL the aircraft to 1:

Outstanding! I'm normally against the 1 replacement rate, but it kicks ass for China. It forces the player to disband units without reforming them, as was historically the case in this theater.

The other U.S. aircraft used by the Chinese Air Force will be standard U.S. types – which will tend to give the Chinese the ability to over-expand. Don’t like this but it’s a place to start and the alternative is to use up almost all the remaining aircraft slots for the CAF.

A good solution here would be to set some of the squadrons that are historically disbanded with terminal upgrades. Example - an I-16 squadron that upgrades to I-16s; run out of I-16s, disband the squadron. That'll help get rid of some of the overabundance of chinese squadrons lat in the war.

I am also tentatively adding the Chinese A-29 with an 8/42 availability date, 26 aircraft in pool, and a replacement rate of 1. Not sure if this will hold! For now I’m using the Hudson icon. If we do not use a specific Chinese A-29 the best alternative that I can come up with is adding 2-dozen SB-2c to the pool.

Bradley's right. If you put these in the pool, they will be available in the beginning.

Oh, and I do not understand why the Chinese Aces should have their values changed – can someone enlighten me??

The problem is that the computer looks at the overall skill of the group when evaluating combat, then looks at individual pilot skills to see who gets credit for kills and who gets shot down (unless I'm misunderstanding the air-to-air routine, that is). This is why a standard Chinese squadron might have, say 12 kills but one 89 skill pilot has 10 of them, whereas an AVG Squadron might have 40 kills and their top pilot with only 6 kills, and quite often a top pilot will get knocked off. Since the routine (again, if I'm correct) looks at skill after the fight, the chinese ace is virtually invincible and gets the vast majority of the kills. Reducing the pilot to a skill closer to his group shouldn't have a noticable effect on combat, but should make will make him an ace more in comparision with other pilots in the theatre. Instead of total 12 kills with one pilot having 10 of them, you should end up with a squadron with, say 12 kills, but the leading ace has 4 kills, then two with a pair of kills and 4 with one kill apiece. It's really not a biggie on the grand scale of things. I was just tired of my Chinese squadrons looking like the Red Baron leading a group of semi-trained monkeys. Reduce the aces and they begin to behave more like a real squadron . . . a poorly trained squadron, but a real squadron nonetheless.
bs

[Don Bowen]

Is it correct the aircraft factories will automatically upgrade to the specified aircraft on the availability date?

Specifically
[ol]
[*] Aircraft One is set to Upgrade to Aircraft Two (in the aircraft database)
[*] Aircraft Two has an availability date of 9/42.
[*] A Factory exists producing 20 Aircraft One (in a well supplied base with good lighting and a well-stocked officer's club)
[/ol]

Will the Factory change on 9/42 to producing 20 Aircraft Two??

If so, I can screw with factories and get what I want.

If not, to hell with it - it's too complex for me.

Don

[Bradley7735]

Is it correct the aircraft factories will automatically upgrade to the specified aircraft on the availability date?

Specifically



Aircraft One is set to Upgrade to Aircraft Two (in the aircraft database)

Aircraft Two has an availability date of 9/42.

A Factory exists producing 20 Aircraft One (in a well supplied base with good lighting and a well-stocked officer's club)



Will the Factory change on 9/42 to producing 20 Aircraft Two??

If so, I can screw with factories and get what I want.

If not, to hell with it - it's too complex for me.

Don

Yes to all. (it'll still produce, even if the officer's club isn't well stocked)

[Don Bowen]

All right, here's my last gasp:

1. Create the P-66 aircraft with an availability of 6/42 and an upgrade to P-40N (which is available 4/43)
2. Reduce P-40N build rate from 90 to 75.
3. Add factory building 15 P-66.

Intent:
P-66 factory comes on line 6/42, produces 45 aircraft by 9/42 and 150 by 3/43.
P-66 factory switches to P-40N, upping total production to 90 (75 build rate plus 15 Factory)


I can't work this with A-29 and B-25J (times won't work out) so I guess I'll just abandon the A-29 and add 12 SB-2c to the pool and make the late-arriving A-29 squadron arrive 12/41 with 12 more SB-2c. Wasn't too thrilled about using up a valuable aircraft slot for A-29 anyway.

[Bradley7735]

That sounds perfect to me. Just make sure the factory isn't in China so it can be bombed into dust. (should probably be in inland US or maybe West coast. I don't know where it was made historically)

Too bad about the A-29, but the P-66 is pretty good. I think even better than having 120 in the pool. I kind of like the trickle in method. Seems more realistic.

[jcjordan]

Don been reading Tex Hill's book about his experiences in SE Asia with the AVG & 23rd FG. It doesn't talk much about the Chinese AF other than direct ops with the AVG but can give a timeline on US equipment & deployments. If it helps some in mid May42 he talks about ferrying several P43's with Chinese pilots from Karachi getting to Kunming in Aug42, he thought they weren't very experienced at the time but felt they got much better with the a/c by the time they landed in Kunming. I haven't loaded the game in a few days so don't know arrival dates in game but it also tells of the 23rd FG & 16thFS arriving in Karchi at midMay as well & the 16th being "aquired" from 10thAF by Chennault. The 11th BS (B25's) is also mentioned as being attached in midJune42. There was mention of a few Spit's (didn't mention squadron) that arrived much earlier than in the game, during the fall of Rangoon.
I've read the book about as far as Hill being sent home on extended leave after the 23rd had taken over for the AVG (about Dec42). If you want me to try & find something that might help you, just let me know & I'll see what it might say.