Why is Berlin relatively unimportant.

[Delphinium]

I know it's a game thing, but the loss of Berlin doesn't trigger any great German collapse.
Having read a lot of the recent literature on the closing stages of the war, Berlin WAS the focus of German defence due to it being the HEART of the Third Reich. I have played the Russians to learn ground pounding and often find that East Germany (including Berlin) falls ahead of schedule, but getting West Germany is another matter altogether.
Seems at odds with history.

[PeterF]

I agree. End games against the AI feature piles of units in Fortress W Germany. Kind of preposterous.

However Japan surrenders if Tokyo falls.

[paullus99]

Western Germany is where the bulk of the remaining resources & factories are - if the AI loses Western Germany, then Eastern Germany will fall pretty quickly anyway.

[PDiFolco]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Western Germany is where the bulk of the remaining resources & factories are - if the AI loses Western Germany, then Eastern Germany will fall pretty quickly anyway.

Yes but it looks like the issue is to the opposite -ie shouldn't the Reich crumble as soon as Berlin is taken *even if* W Ger still holds ?
As history didn't go this way we don't know, maybe we could have a 50% chance of this.

[paullus99]

Hitler certainly had every intention to go down fighting - if he hadn't been in Berlin in April 1945 & instead was somewhere West, North or South, then Germany would have kept on fighting.

[Delphinium]

Puallus, my observation was based on that Hitler in particular was not going to give up Berlin without a fight. I'd have felt much more comfortable if there was some big penalty for losing Berlin. The Germans could have hedgehogged in West Germany, but the reality is that giving up East Germany and the capital would have been catastrophic for morale.

[PeterF]

I agree.

As history didn't go this way we don't know

German high command didn't LET history turn out this way even if the WaW AI does. Berlin was heavily defended. Also, the Russians were regarded as the greater menace. It's hard to picture the Nazi state continuing in a decapitated state. This is more plausible in the case of Russia with her boundless hinterland. Nevertheless, Stalin refused to abandon Moscow as the Germans approached in 41.

[AnimalAl]

ORIGINAL: PeterF

I agree.

As history didn't go this way we don't know

German high command didn't LET history turn out this way even if the WaW AI does. Berlin was heavily defended. Also, the Russians were regarded as the greater menace. It's hard to picture the Nazi state continuing in a decapitated state. This is more plausible in the case of Russia with her boundless hinterland. Nevertheless, Stalin refused to abandon Moscow as the Germans approached in 41.

This is an excellent point. I haven't played WAW enough to note a trend but have had teh situation where the amount of forces in W. Germany was immense compared to what Germany was throwing against the Russians. Surely the game ought to at least have the AI recognize that the real threat is coming from the East - all the forces coming over land toward their capital, as opposed to a cross-Channel invasion that is more limited in resources.

[dobeln]

Well, the historical reason that Berlin, and not say, Munich, was the last stand for Hitler was that the western defenses had already collapsed. The Western Allies were across the Rhine, had captured the industrial Ruhr and had gobbled up pretty much the entire western area. If there had been no threat from the west, no doubt Hitler would have kept on fighting in the west.

While there was always the possibility of a coup against Hitler from the military, from Stalingrad and on, all such attempts failed historically. As this game doesn't like throwing hugely important random variables into the mix ("Russia Declares War in 1940!"), I'd say having the Germans fight to the finish regardless of the status of Berlin is the right way to go.

[PeterF]

Well, the historical reason that Berlin, and not say, Munich, was the last stand for Hitler was that the western defenses had already collapsed.

Mainly because the Germans had moved so many formations east to counter the Soviets. The AI is merely reacting logically to conserve ressources.

[bmodified]

Perhaps the little movie should announce the fall of Berlin, and then say that resistance continues as if nothing happened?[;)]

I would think that there should be SOME sort of penalty-all units reduced to militia, a percentage chance of surrender by unit or region, all attacks against Germany are more effective, all attacks by Germany are less effective, South America fills up with Nazis that look like Gregory Peck, something...

[paullus99]

If you've taken Eastern Germany, Western Germany is doomed anyway - those troops are going to fight, but their backs are against the wall & are going to lose eventually. Part of it too would be to prevent a gamey situation where the Western Allies force the Baltic & possibly take an under-protected Eastern Germany (trust me, it happens). I'd rather fight on then be forced to surrender to something like that.

PBEM changes the dynamics a lot....

[bmodified]

Good point, but one could argue that not defending Berlin as a vital asset is a gamey situation by itself.

Perhaps the penalties agains Germany should kick in if they don't retake Berlin by the end of the next turn?

[PeterF]

Perhaps the penalties agains Germany should kick in if they don't retake Berlin by the end of the next turn?

Or if they lose Berlin after a predetermined date. Say, antime after Jan, 1945.

For PBEMers, it appears this is user configurable:

// Surrender conditions ... if all these areas are lost ... loser has al units remvoed from map
// SURRENDER,<player>,<surrenders to player>,<area>,<area>...
SURRENDER,PLAYER_GER,PLAYER_UN,66,67
SURRENDER,PLAYER_JAP,PLAYER_UN,209

[pyrhic]

It's certainly arguable, but it seems it is the fate of the leader, not of the capital cities, which decides the fighting will of the country. If there still remains a capacity to wage war, and the leader still survives and is in command of that capacity, then it's logical the war will continue. I don't think many people doubt Russia would have fought on regardless of the fate of Moscow....but had Stalin died....hmmm.

As there's no leaders in the game, it must be assumed 'they' survive until the end and that their will remains intact. Also, don't forget that Hitler attached an importance to Berlin that wasn't reflected in its military/industrial value - call it sentimentality. A more logical mind, or a computer, probably would attach more value to the industrial heartland of the west - something which might just be right.

[Dalwin]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

If you've taken Eastern Germany, Western Germany is doomed anyway - those troops are going to fight, but their backs are against the wall & are going to lose eventually. Part of it too would be to prevent a gamey situation where the Western Allies force the Baltic & possibly take an under-protected Eastern Germany (trust me, it happens). I'd rather fight on then be forced to surrender to something like that.

PBEM changes the dynamics a lot....

I have to disagree with this. I have seen games with a huge force in West Germany and East Germany changing hands several times.

If the Germans Keep a large enough force in West Germany, they can often strike back out and retake France or Italy since the WA seems to prefer Holland as the spot to build its forces for the final assault.