TF maximum speed

[adsoul]

Sorry if the question has already been answered but I haven't found anything in the forum. The manual (§6.1.7 pag 77) states: "The TF speed in hexes is equal to the slowest ship's speed in knots divided by 5, and is rounded up or down based on the computer's calculations. Regardless of how fast it is, no TF may move more than 6 hexes per turn". Well, I don't know if "per turn" does mean "every day" or "each phase" (i.e. night + day), anyway this doesn't seem occur to me. I tested TFs with the slowest ship is 33knots and she moved 6 hexes day 1 and 9 hexes both day 2 & 3. She had no fuel problem so no ops points have been expended, max react was set to zero, so I think I get the "real" maximum speed, but I just can't understand where those 9 hexes are coming from... it's more than 6 hexes a day and less then 6 hexes each hase. Any ideas?

Thanks everybody.

[rogueusmc]

Ops points are expended in everything the ship does. Just travelling across the water. If they refuel, they will not travel as far because the refuelling took ops points that could be used for movement. Firing guns uses ops points. Dumping human waste uses them.

[tsimmonds]

Operating A/C uses Op points too. Try an SCTF with only DDs in it.

[adsoul]

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

Ops points are expended in everything the ship does. Just travelling across the water. If they refuel, they will not travel as far because the refuelling took ops points that could be used for movement. Firing guns uses ops points. Dumping human waste uses them.

OK, but this does not answer my question. My TF (docked & refueled the turn before) move 6 hexes the first turn and 9 the second turn. Why? They refueled again in first turn? And why 9 hexes the second turn? The TF is supposed to move 12 hexes if the maximum limit is "6 hexes per phase. Now I'm trying one more test with one-ship TFs that don't go to a port in order to be sure no fuel operation is involved.

[adsoul]

Yep, I'm doing so. Anyway every a/c was set to stand down

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Operating A/C uses Op points too. Try an SCTF with only DDs in it.

[witpqs]

I believe that movement is done in 2 phases per day, first nightime then daytime. That 9 should have been a combo of the 2 phases.

[tsimmonds]

Just did a little test. An SCTF with an IJ DD division, fully fueled, with an order to move from Etorofo Jima to Saipan, moved 12 hexes in one turn, 6 hexes per phase.

[adsoul]

Yep I agree. My tests show that DD TF's can move 12 per turn or 6 hexes per phase. Other TFs will achieve this speed very seldom. I think that depends on ops points (bombardment, air missions and so on) but especially refueling. I have the feeling that ships with very different endurance (like BBs and DDs) will refuel smaller boats almost each turn. A special thanks to Irrelevant for your help.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Just did a little test. An SCTF with an IJ DD division, fully fueled, with an order to move from Etorofo Jima to Saipan, moved 12 hexes in one turn, 6 hexes per phase.

[Ron Saueracker]

That's 720 nm a day. Hmmm... Are ships capable of these sustained full power runs? I'm personally glad of the high sys damage penalty. Keepsplayers reined in.

[adsoul]

I think too 720 nm is a little bit too much especially 'cause there was alot of zigzagging, but as I told, TFs move so fast seldom (excluding DD TFs). The average speed I have seen for carrier TFs moving fast and with all a/c set to stand down is 9hexes a day (540nm) or 22.5 knots per hour and this seem pretty historical to me.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

That's 720 nm a day. Hmmm... Are ships capable of these sustained full power runs? I'm personally glad of the high sys damage penalty. Keepsplayers reined in.

[Mr.Frag]

6 hex x 2 (day/night) is going to be your maximum speed.

From this, aircraft launches and refueling will eat away at the maximum.

Since you are generally launching during the daylight only, you end up with a 4/6 split.

If you really want to get somewhere in a hurry, ground the planes and go! [;)]

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: adso

I think too 720 nm is a little bit too much especially 'cause there was alot of zigzagging, but as I told, TFs move so fast seldom (excluding DD TFs). The average speed I have seen for carrier TFs moving fast and with all a/c set to stand down is 9hexes a day (540nm) or 22.5 knots per hour and this seem pretty historical to me.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

That's 720 nm a day. Hmmm... Are ships capable of these sustained full power runs? I'm personally glad of the high sys damage penalty. Keepsplayers reined in.

As it turns out a "routine" speed of 16 knots would be more like it, that is, for a modern warship going from point A to point B. Your quoted speed of 22.5 knots (constant) begins to approach the territory of a "high speed run." A ship's actual flank speed wouldn't be employed (as a rule) except in time of danger (torpedoes sighted or bandits coming in, for example) or by carriers when launching aircraft into still air. That isn't to say ships didn't occasionally sail full speed ahead, but this was reserved for when that kind of speed was really needed. You see, it tended to tear things apart in the engineering spaces. [;)]

[adsoul]

22.5 knots is hardly "flank speed" for fast CVs, CAs and DDs. In RL there are many cases of TFs who made high speed runs for several hours (for example Spruance off Midway the night of June 4th, I don't have books here but IIRC many hours at 25-26 knots). But I agree with you about tearing IMHO this was modelled accurately in UV and I suspect they have reduced system damage due to high speed runs because players have asked.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: adso

22.5 knots is hardly "flank speed" for fast CVs, CAs and DDs. In RL there are many cases of TFs who made high speed runs for several hours (for example Spruance off Midway the night of June 4th, I don't have books here but IIRC many hours at 25-26 knots). But I agree with you about tearing IMHO this was modelled accurately in UV and I suspect they have reduced system damage due to high speed runs because players have asked.

Can't you read better than that? Please, go back and read again what I actually wrote.

What you're doing here is putting words in my mouth. It only confuses the discussion. And discussion around here is already confused enough, if you care to know. [:(]

[Mr.Frag]

That isn't to say ships didn't occasionally sail full speed ahead, but this was reserved for when that kind of speed was really needed. You see, it tended to tear things apart in the engineering spaces.

Might have done speed runs during local bases, but once you start talking the pacific, few ships had the fuel capacity to go tearing around. Most of the DD's can barely make it from PH to Oz at 12 knots forget about anything faster. Even then, the risk of damage at flank is rather high as you have said. It is an EMERGENCY speed, not something you do for fun.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

That isn't to say ships didn't occasionally sail full speed ahead, but this was reserved for when that kind of speed was really needed. You see, it tended to tear things apart in the engineering spaces.

Might have done speed runs during local bases, but once you start talking the pacific, few ships had the fuel capacity to go tearing around. Most of the DD's can barely make it from PH to Oz at 12 knots forget about anything faster. Even then, the risk of damage at flank is rather high as you have said. It is an EMERGENCY speed, not something you do for fun.

After all this time you and I have found something we can completely agree on. [8D]

Of course the model's off here, too. I've experimented with this ingame and running at full speed hardly bothers ships at all. There ought to be critical breakdowns all over the place, but there are not. On the other hand, the model seems to add too much incidental damage (call it wear and tear) to ships even when they're used economically. I suppose that would be tough to get right, though, unless a lot of time were invested in just this one area of the simulation, so on balance it seems to work okay. More or less. Kind of.

[freeboy]

to work okay. More or less. Kind of.

A are you a politican ? and
B.. you kiss your mom with those lips[:D]

[Mr.Frag]

There ought to be critical breakdowns all over the place, but there are not.

As the propulsion system is not modelled as a separate entity, we can't pop off boilers or throw screws to kill the speed. The solution was to just crank up SYS damage rates as soon as the ship exceeded it's cruise speed. It's not perfect, but folks learn quick enough that driving them hard means time spent sitting in port. It's the old scope creep, where does a feature actually become a drawback simply because it just makes things take more and more time.

One day, many years from now when we are doing WitP II ourselves, we'll put in a full ship model with all sorts of damage criticals to make ships far more painful to keep running. One of the other things I wanted had time permitted was storm damage. No tin can's in the Pacific went running around in those waters without getting their butts kicked. We couldn't do it as there is no weather system model running so storms are random instead of flowing across the map. (which would allow you to see whats coming).

( Don't take my WitP II statement to mean 2by3 has signed on to do it - yet! [:D] )

[Grotius]

To the original poster: as you have no doubt gathered from this discussion, the manual meant to say a max of six hexes per 'phase', not per 'turn'. This perplexed me no end when I first got the game and saw TFs moving as much as 12 per turn.

Mr. Frag, as long as we're daydreaming about improvements to weather, here's one vote for monsoons in Burma, and even worse weather than what we have now in Alaska.

[tsimmonds]

Mr. Frag, as long as we're daydreaming about improvements to weather, here's one vote for monsoons in Burma, and even worse weather than what we have now in Alaska.

We already have monsoons in Burma! In my game with Halsey we have had Tstorms in that area at least 80% of the time.