It seems to me, that the special supply feature is very problematic. I read very different opinions to this topic in different posts in different threads. So I started this topic so everyone would find the posts on the right topic.
Rick, Ed, whoever might know:
Is it possible to give a amount of special supply points to a side. Say 20 or so per side and turn. Everytime a Corps get SS, the points should be lowered by one. This would please everyone:
The supplies are now the supply points, the Op points are Op points and you could supply a corps until the SS are used up.
Would it be possible to change the amount of SS while the game (according the supply level or the readiness loss of the Soviets or so)?
Would it be possible to build supply factories, that build new SS everyturn so you could collect them in a pool like arty or recon?
Yes, I know, too complicated, too much work, but a niece feature! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Hello, who wants to discuss about special supply, do it here!
Hello, who wants to discuss about special supply, do it here!
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by Frank:
Is it possible to give a amount of special supply points to a side. Say 20 or so per side and turn. Everytime a Corps get SS, the points should be lowered by one. This would please everyone:
The supplies are now the supply points, the Op points are Op points and you could supply a corps until the SS are used up.
Hi, Frank
I don't know. If we agreed SS was simply normal supplies, then it would be a nice idea, but I still don't think SS is just ordinary supplies, although probably a major chunk of it is ordinary supplies. I'm alone on that opinion though, and I just don't have the energy to fight over that again right now. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
My take on this is that the SS concept itself is not the problem, rather the issue is how much SS should a single combat unit get in a turn? If we can agree on that then we do it, and plug the remaining holes that allow exploitation, and everyone should be happy at that point.
Would it be possible to change the amount of SS while the game (according the supply level or the readiness loss of the Soviets or so)?
Variable SS is fine with me, although it would take a lot of work, but as I said above, the real issue is what *is* SS and how much of it should a corps get in a turn.
This is actually an interesting idea though. If we connected SS to the supply level of the unit's square, SS becomes plentiful for units in Supply Level 6 squares but meager for units in SL1 or SL2 squares. Hmmmm....
A lot of work to do this for no apparent gain. Again, the argument is how much SS should a single unit get in a turn, not how SS is created and handled by the game. I don't know of anyone complaining about that.
Would it be possible to build supply factories, that build new SS everyturn so you could collect them in a pool like arty or recon?
I do like the Variable SS idea though Frank.
Hello Ed,
sometimes I have a good idea. At least I think the idea is good.
Would it be possible to use the ability factor of the commanding general, too?
I think about something like (supply*ability)/2
or better need one point per supplied unit.
This would mean while Blitz phase in a average Army:
9*6=54 :2= 27 units could be supplied, while later
6*6=36 :2= 18 units could be supplied.
Maybe still a bit high, but you could think about it.
[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: Frank ]</p>
sometimes I have a good idea. At least I think the idea is good.
Would it be possible to use the ability factor of the commanding general, too?
I think about something like (supply*ability)/2
or better need one point per supplied unit.
This would mean while Blitz phase in a average Army:
9*6=54 :2= 27 units could be supplied, while later
6*6=36 :2= 18 units could be supplied.
Maybe still a bit high, but you could think about it.
[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: Frank ]</p>
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To the Operation point thing:
When supply points are introduced, we could define supply points as real supply and operation points as Headquarter´s planning capacity or so.
It would be possible to use up the supply points (thereby losing op-points, too).
Additional we could think about changing the "replace level" by something like "supply level" and give it an upper limit for the entire force (Germany 1000, SU 1000 or so).
[I have never understood whatfor it is good to set the replace level to 50 instead of 90. I never noticed negative side effects when using the higher grade.]
It is just thinking about this thing.
When supply points are introduced, we could define supply points as real supply and operation points as Headquarter´s planning capacity or so.
It would be possible to use up the supply points (thereby losing op-points, too).
Additional we could think about changing the "replace level" by something like "supply level" and give it an upper limit for the entire force (Germany 1000, SU 1000 or so).
[I have never understood whatfor it is good to set the replace level to 50 instead of 90. I never noticed negative side effects when using the higher grade.]
It is just thinking about this thing.
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This already happens, it seems to me. Give special supply to a unit at SL 2 and the readiness increase is small, compared to one at SL 6. However, it may just be that I am missing the fact that the SL 6 unit is already at much higher readiness, but I don't think so. I guess it would be worth checking to make sure.Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
...This is actually an interesting idea though. If we connected SS to the supply level of the unit's square, SS becomes
plentiful for units in Supply Level 6 squares but meager for units in SL1 or SL2 squares. Hmmmm....
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Just a quick reply here. Ed you aren't the only one who thinks Special Supply is more than just supplies. Since it uses operations points and operations points are not just supplies. I look at as a focusing of the HQ on that unit making sure that it gets all the stuff it needs. Much like what Patton did when he stripped the trucks from some divisions to keep his forward ones moving.
I also believe that the boost from SS is dependant on the SL of the hex. It isn't worth SSing a unit in SL1 for example. And SSing a SL0 unit will do nothing!
If you want SS is a bit like alowing you to set the supply levels of division in the W@W or V4V games. It allows you to have some influence on the supply net which is otherwise not available..which would be available to a real commander.
I also believe that the boost from SS is dependant on the SL of the hex. It isn't worth SSing a unit in SL1 for example. And SSing a SL0 unit will do nothing!
If you want SS is a bit like alowing you to set the supply levels of division in the W@W or V4V games. It allows you to have some influence on the supply net which is otherwise not available..which would be available to a real commander.
Personally, wuold like the Matrix limit on only one allowed special supply re-considered. From much of discussion I see, it is an imperfect fix and lending to possible other problems. I would propose a minimum allowed of two and no more than four (guess that makes 3 the average) special supplies allowed on a unit. Obviously, Ed has a point that OPs are more than supplies <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> but I believe they are majoritively (is that a word) supplies.
The game itself is very limited in the ability to seperate the two (I don't know the programming, but I'd bet its impossible without lots of money and programming changes). So, we are stuck with the combined package of supplies and Operation preperations.
So, what to do?
I like the proposed idea of bringing commander rating into the OP point calculation. Call it a general of 6 rating in 6 supply = 60 OP points (allowing for other factors that are included in the formulation. The problem of course is the elite generals are running at Blitzkreig Ops points all the time and ludicrous Ops points for the German elites in '41 Blitzkreig. Of course their units will not enjoy the supplies at this level (hopefully the engine works that way), and only the HQs Ops points will be high. I'd say this is realistic, however, when you consider a 3 rating general would be totally screwed by his own incomptence (it would also put a crimp on the HQ mules availability of OP points since HQ mules tend to be commanded by lower ranked generals).
The other limitation to Ed's concern of HQ mules could be addressed by limiting a unit to only 1 HQ change per turn (if that is possible). This would keep a player from switching to the mule, resupplying, then switching back to the elite HQ with all the planes in it. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> I'd consider this a fair limitation, but it requires a little more effort on the part of the player not to make mistakes he can't live with when changing HQs. Also, as I recall, back in Second Front a HQ that is moved into an area would commendeer local Corps in what, I believe I read (I didn't read his mind this time, Ed) that Grigsby was trying to recreate as German flexibility. Is this still the case? I haven't noticed with all the HQ mule stuff I've been doing.
(Air supply comment deleted if you already read this. I'm not ready to comment on this one after thinking about it again.)
I believe an ever present objective, when developing fixes to the game, is to not overly restrict a player just for the sake of keeping everything they can do as something that has been done before. Otherwise, I believe operations should be able to be flexible, ingenious, and creative so long as they can answer yes to the question, "Could the historical figures at the time have done this with the resources, equipment, and political conditions they had available to them if they had wanted to?" The fact that they did not actually do something should not be the condition for inclusion. The fact is they may have thought of doing some things and chose not to for many reasons: a better idea came along, operational conditions changed so it wasn't necessary, a different priority emerged, etc. We'll never know all the things they conceived of doing with their situations but did not choose to do. We only see the things they did choose to do from, I'm sure what was a variety of options they conceived. Anyone ever write an essay before? Did you brainstorm the essay before writing it? If so, I bet their were ideas you could have used, but didn't. Maybe they could have worked too. So instead of an A you would have gotten a B with the other idea. Or, if you were unlucky, the other way around.
Ok, I'm starting to ramble.
[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: BrickReid ]</p>
The game itself is very limited in the ability to seperate the two (I don't know the programming, but I'd bet its impossible without lots of money and programming changes). So, we are stuck with the combined package of supplies and Operation preperations.
So, what to do?
I like the proposed idea of bringing commander rating into the OP point calculation. Call it a general of 6 rating in 6 supply = 60 OP points (allowing for other factors that are included in the formulation. The problem of course is the elite generals are running at Blitzkreig Ops points all the time and ludicrous Ops points for the German elites in '41 Blitzkreig. Of course their units will not enjoy the supplies at this level (hopefully the engine works that way), and only the HQs Ops points will be high. I'd say this is realistic, however, when you consider a 3 rating general would be totally screwed by his own incomptence (it would also put a crimp on the HQ mules availability of OP points since HQ mules tend to be commanded by lower ranked generals).
The other limitation to Ed's concern of HQ mules could be addressed by limiting a unit to only 1 HQ change per turn (if that is possible). This would keep a player from switching to the mule, resupplying, then switching back to the elite HQ with all the planes in it. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> I'd consider this a fair limitation, but it requires a little more effort on the part of the player not to make mistakes he can't live with when changing HQs. Also, as I recall, back in Second Front a HQ that is moved into an area would commendeer local Corps in what, I believe I read (I didn't read his mind this time, Ed) that Grigsby was trying to recreate as German flexibility. Is this still the case? I haven't noticed with all the HQ mule stuff I've been doing.
(Air supply comment deleted if you already read this. I'm not ready to comment on this one after thinking about it again.)
I believe an ever present objective, when developing fixes to the game, is to not overly restrict a player just for the sake of keeping everything they can do as something that has been done before. Otherwise, I believe operations should be able to be flexible, ingenious, and creative so long as they can answer yes to the question, "Could the historical figures at the time have done this with the resources, equipment, and political conditions they had available to them if they had wanted to?" The fact that they did not actually do something should not be the condition for inclusion. The fact is they may have thought of doing some things and chose not to for many reasons: a better idea came along, operational conditions changed so it wasn't necessary, a different priority emerged, etc. We'll never know all the things they conceived of doing with their situations but did not choose to do. We only see the things they did choose to do from, I'm sure what was a variety of options they conceived. Anyone ever write an essay before? Did you brainstorm the essay before writing it? If so, I bet their were ideas you could have used, but didn't. Maybe they could have worked too. So instead of an A you would have gotten a B with the other idea. Or, if you were unlucky, the other way around.
Ok, I'm starting to ramble.
[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: BrickReid ]</p>
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by BrickReid:
Personally, wuold like the Matrix limit on only one allowed special supply re-considered. From much of discussion I see, it is an imperfect fix and lending to possible other problems. I would propose a minimum allowed of two and no more than four (guess that makes 3 the average) special supplies allowed on a unit.
Like I said, I'm sure enough about this to argue it either way. 2 SS might be a good compromise.
I like the proposed idea of bringing commander rating into the OP point calculation.
Yes, in principle I agree, but the devil will be in the details.
The other limitation to Ed's concern of HQ mules could be addressed by limiting a unit to only 1 HQ change per turn (if that is possible).
That's an option already mentioned on the buglist for this bug.
Also, as I recall, back in Second Front a HQ that is moved into an area would commendeer local Corps in what, I believe I read (I didn't read his mind this time, Ed) that Grigsby was trying to recreate as German flexibility.
I don't have Second Front. Can you quote the part of the manual you're talking about?
I believe an ever present objective, when developing fixes to the game, is to not overly restrict a player just for the sake of keeping everything they can do as something that has been done before.
You're not the first to imply this, but its incorrect. I'm not opposed to allowing things simply because they weren't done, I'm opposed to allowing things that could not have been done even if they had tried. The problem is things that obviously couldn't have been done are almost always never tried too. Was the panzer in the backfield thing never tried because no one thought about it, or someone did think about it, but dropped it when it was clear the idea was currently unfeasible? This is a difficult thing of course, and not all will agree to a given action, all we can do is go on common sense where possible and what empirical or ancedotal evidence exists. The problem with the panzer corps in the backfield thing is there is no evidence one way or the other available to us. At least its not been found yet. My suspicion is this idea was not just radical but also impossible given the logistical state-of-the-art back then, thus the idea was never mentioned, at least until post-modern times. I have found a contemporary reference from a military officer that explores this idea on his webpage.
[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>
Paul McNeely,Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
Just a quick reply here. Ed you aren't the only one who thinks Special Supply is more than just supplies. Since it uses operations points and operations points are not just supplies. I look at as a focusing of the HQ on that unit making sure that it gets all the stuff it needs. Much like what Patton did when he stripped the trucks from some divisions to keep his forward ones moving.
I also believe that the boost from SS is dependant on the SL of the hex. It isn't worth SSing a unit in SL1 for example. And SSing a SL0 unit will do nothing!
If you want SS is a bit like alowing you to set the supply levels of division in the W@W or V4V games. It allows you to have some influence on the supply net which is otherwise not available..which would be available to a real commander.
I just checked and SS raises the readiness of a unit by 5% times the supply level. In other words a unit in a supply level 1 hex will have its readiness raised from say 50 to 55 but the same unit in a supply level 6 hex would have its redniness raised from 50 to 80. The cost of the SS is the same no matter what the supply level of the receiving unit is.
Svar
Hey, it seems to me we are coming forward.
The next question:
Would it be possible to allow, say 10 specialsupply operations per Armygroup (or less for an Army)?
By doing so one could special supply one corps as often as he wants, but looses the ability of special supplying others.
I think this would give an quite historic effect:
Armies did not have the trucks or horse wagons to give neverending special supply to every unit under her command.
With this combination everyone should be able to live.
Ed has the special supply reduced in historic manner as there was no more transport.
Rich has the ability to special supply a corps more times.
Just think about it. Would it work?
The next question:
Would it be possible to allow, say 10 specialsupply operations per Armygroup (or less for an Army)?
By doing so one could special supply one corps as often as he wants, but looses the ability of special supplying others.
I think this would give an quite historic effect:
Armies did not have the trucks or horse wagons to give neverending special supply to every unit under her command.
With this combination everyone should be able to live.
Ed has the special supply reduced in historic manner as there was no more transport.
Rich has the ability to special supply a corps more times.
Just think about it. Would it work?
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Thanks Svar! That is what I thought it was like.
I have a question though. Why do people want to be able to "special supply" a unit 2-20+ times in the first place? There is the game effect of raising its readiness to 99 true but on the other hand normal boost is 20-30 pts and that is generaly sufficient.
Also it is "special" supply. If you could do it as much as you want then it is no longer "special". Consider also that assuming an average gain of 20 with 4 of them virtually any unit will be raised to full effectiveness.
I have difficulty seeing where this is coming from, the supply network is fairly fixed and so although devoting HQ staff to ensuring that the supplies get thru (and so on) can improve the situation somewhat you still can't do miracles. And raising a readiness 20 unit to readiness 100 would, for me, qualify as a major one. The Vatican will be sending out a team soon to check if canonisation is required sort of thing.
Sorry but I find this question (much like the marauding Pz Korp) baffling...
I have a question though. Why do people want to be able to "special supply" a unit 2-20+ times in the first place? There is the game effect of raising its readiness to 99 true but on the other hand normal boost is 20-30 pts and that is generaly sufficient.
Also it is "special" supply. If you could do it as much as you want then it is no longer "special". Consider also that assuming an average gain of 20 with 4 of them virtually any unit will be raised to full effectiveness.
I have difficulty seeing where this is coming from, the supply network is fairly fixed and so although devoting HQ staff to ensuring that the supplies get thru (and so on) can improve the situation somewhat you still can't do miracles. And raising a readiness 20 unit to readiness 100 would, for me, qualify as a major one. The Vatican will be sending out a team soon to check if canonisation is required sort of thing.
Sorry but I find this question (much like the marauding Pz Korp) baffling...
In former times, when the blizzard bug didn´t strike it was a real good idea to special supply your corps to get a somewhat stabil defenceline.
While an attack it is good when your one Pzcorps has enough strength to pull forward your objective. When your readiness is high one corps is enough, otherwise you would need two or three.
It is normal military habit to give you enough to live but not one piece more. If you want to attack or think that you will have to defend you give special supply, so your forces will be able to fight better and more effective.
So giving lots of supplies to your corps is good for you.
But you are absolutely right, when you think the number of supply actions should be limited. That is what I tried to say above.
While an attack it is good when your one Pzcorps has enough strength to pull forward your objective. When your readiness is high one corps is enough, otherwise you would need two or three.
It is normal military habit to give you enough to live but not one piece more. If you want to attack or think that you will have to defend you give special supply, so your forces will be able to fight better and more effective.
So giving lots of supplies to your corps is good for you.
But you are absolutely right, when you think the number of supply actions should be limited. That is what I tried to say above.
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Ed Cogburn
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Err, don't make the assumption I don't use "Special Supply". I do as a standard practice but I have only rarely found situations where I would like to do it twice usually once is enough.
One of the things special supply allows which is unhistorical is maintenance of a high tempo of operations for literally months on end. This is not realy typical of WW2 where often a few months would elapse between major operations as both sides built up supplies and so forth to launch the next big offensive. Although without it is hard to imagine the first 6 weeks for the german being too sucessful.
For me it is a question of "Isn't once enough?"
Oder "Ein mal ist nichts genug?" für Frank. Wo whohens Sie ins Bayern??
One of the things special supply allows which is unhistorical is maintenance of a high tempo of operations for literally months on end. This is not realy typical of WW2 where often a few months would elapse between major operations as both sides built up supplies and so forth to launch the next big offensive. Although without it is hard to imagine the first 6 weeks for the german being too sucessful.
For me it is a question of "Isn't once enough?"
Oder "Ein mal ist nichts genug?" für Frank. Wo whohens Sie ins Bayern??
Hello Paul,
I live in Grafenwöhr, a little town near Weiden or 70km from Nuremberg.
To the supply question:
I do seldom use special supply at all, but the question which lead to this thread was whether special supply should be used as it is or if it should be changed to please all gamers.
So it would be a possibility to make the game a little more flexible for gamers who have other strategies or tactics than we do, when multiple ss would be allowed.
I live in Grafenwöhr, a little town near Weiden or 70km from Nuremberg.
To the supply question:
I do seldom use special supply at all, but the question which lead to this thread was whether special supply should be used as it is or if it should be changed to please all gamers.
So it would be a possibility to make the game a little more flexible for gamers who have other strategies or tactics than we do, when multiple ss would be allowed.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
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Grüß Gott Frank! I guess we won't be meeting for Kaffe then anytime soon! When the blizzard bug is fixed if you are interested in a PBEM send me an email at pmcneely@t-online.de and we can begin he negotiations for house rules. I don't mind playing the russians.
I think as far as special supply goes, one thing to consider is that if allowed more than once will you be able to do things that are historically impossible? The game should reward you if you follow historical tactics and penalise you otherwise. Just my 5 pfening anyway.
I think as far as special supply goes, one thing to consider is that if allowed more than once will you be able to do things that are historically impossible? The game should reward you if you follow historical tactics and penalise you otherwise. Just my 5 pfening anyway.
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
I think as far as special supply goes, one thing to consider is that if allowed more than once will you be able to do things that are historically impossible?
Excellent question. Not sure any knows the answer to this. This is different from issues about vehicle characteristics. We've got access to info out there that lets us base vehicle values on hard evidence. We don't have this with Special Supply, the manual doesn't even define it for us. Gary himself said he thought it was a mistake to combine supplies and operational planning into the use of "Operation Points" in the game, so a good argument can be made that the same problem exists with Special Supply.
The game should reward you if you follow historical tactics and penalise you otherwise. Just my 5 pfening anyway.
There isn't anything wrong with tactics, per say. Tactics that weren't used or not used often but *were* possible is perfectly valid, along with using different strategies that weren't used historically but also were possible. The tactics of how to use panzer corps for example, as deep penetrators, or used close to the front lines destroying all Soviet forces in detail are valid choices. The thing is some things we know are not historically possible are still being referred to as "tactics" by some. How we use that term "tactic" is part of the problem right now.