We mourn with you USA

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:53 am

Its terrible to hear what happened. Our thoughts are with you the american people today.

Barbos · Post by **Barbos** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:14 am

Our sincere commiserations to all americans. Damn the terror against civilians.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:52 am

Thanks for your thoughts. Its really only the sheer magnitude that makes it stand out over what has been happening for years in Ireland/Great Britain, Israel/Palestine, Russia, and so many other places around the world. I have always felt that terrorist attacks are an attack against the entire civilized world, in every nation, trying to bring darkness to us all.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 10:00 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
Thanks for your thoughts. Its really only the sheer magnitude that makes it stand out over what has been happening for years in Ireland/Great Britain, Israel/Palestine, Russia, and so many other places around the world. I have always felt that terrorist attacks are an attack against the entire civilized world, in every nation, trying to bring darkness to us all.

Ricky

How true, and what is worse is that so many of these atrocities are done in the name of god.
To quote a famous aphorism.
"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Nick

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Sep 14, 2001 10:50 am

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

How true, and what is worse is that so many of these atrocities are done in the name of god.

In the name of the *same* God. To me its incomprehensible. Jews, Christians and Muslems share the same God and even share some older sections of the Bible, but they have this nagging habit of finding an excuse to start killing each other, never mind what the sects within these religions do to one another.

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 10:34 am

This is very sad for all.

I know my nation has lost about 8 people and another 50-60 are unaccounted for.
This is a tragedy for anyone who understands what it is to live day in and day out but who never take the time to say I love you to the people that make you who you are.

It all happened so quickly but the effects will will be felt long after the debris have been removed.

Enough on that.

Have fun.
Jamie. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:09 am

God bless all those innocent victims. And those who will be the victims of tomorrow.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 3:50 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

In the name of the *same* God. To me its incomprehensible. Jews, Christians and Muslems share the same God and even share some older sections of the Bible, but they have this nagging habit of finding an excuse to start killing each other, never mind what the sects within these religions do to one another.
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Ed

Now that one has always perplexed me. The more i think about it the less i understand it*. Are we dealing with the same species? Biologically yes,
psychologically i would be very tempted to say no.
It is said that alien beings would not only look alien but their thoughts and motivations would be a mystery to us. I think many watched the plane strikes on TV with just that sense of the 'unreal'. Replace the airliners with alien saucers and we might 'understand' their insane(to us) act because they are aliens. These terrorists claim however to be Human.
Clearly they have no concept of what it actually means to be human.
They are the aliens amoungst us.
If they refuse to live in peace with us then we must 'remove' them.

Nick

* 'Beware the man of one book'

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 1:57 pm

Though we must divide between terrorists and common people. Without their cultural/religious background, the terrorists would still have done their dirty work but the people would not cheer.

loveman · Post by **loveman** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 3:44 pm

It is a great tradgety and a terrible loss of innocent life.How can anyone stop someone willing to give up thier own life.I am sure that in the coming weeks we will all find out what will happen to the perpetrators of this sad loss of life and i am sure that it will affect every nation.I once heard a quote and it may befit what lies ahead:
TICKLE US , DO WE NOT LAUGH
PRICK US , DO WE NOT BLEED
WRONG US , SHALL WE NOT REVENGE

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 4:40 pm

Originally posted by loveman:
I am sure that in the coming weeks we will all find out what will happen to the perpetrators of this sad loss of life and i am sure that it will affect every nation.

This is going to go on for much longer than weeks, maybe months, pehaps a few years. This won't be a simple air strike against some tents in the desert. From the sounds of US officials, and the British PM, Tony Blair, we are about to embark on a totaly new and international policy for handling terrorists, a plan which includes much more aggression than before. It is not strictly a military operation however, rather, it is something that combines diplomacy, international law that involves law enforcement, and military operations, from a SEAL team to the 82nd Airborne division, maybe even larger operations. Hopefully it will help, but in the case of the Taliban and Laden, this may go on for some time, as finding these people is going to be tough. The Taliban will likely be the first to feel the wrath of an awakened giant, as there are some things that air strikes and small ground operations can accomplish, but finding their leadership will be as hard as finding Laden. Like rats, they've all scattered and gone to ground, the murdering bastards.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 4:59 pm

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
Though we must divide between terrorists and common people. Without their cultural/religious background, the terrorists would still have done their dirty work but the people would not cheer.

SoleSurvivor
They would not have.
And thus to the core of the problem.

Genetics gives each person a base on which to build. That base is a blank slate waiting for 'How to be a Human'. That base, in the case of the individuals who planned and carried out these attacks, has been warped by the FALSE teaching and ANTILIFE philosophy of entrenched religious bureaucracy(albiet not all). The PEOPLE in the back of the planes meant nothing to them. The PEOPLE in the WT towers, their FAMILIES and FRIENDS meant nothing to them.

Without their RELIGIOUS and PARENTAL(who are already rationaly corrupted) backgrounds these individuals would have been allowed a choice in the way that they percieve the world and be given a choice in the way that they will act. I thus amend the rather emotional and limited view in my previous post(in effect i point the finger at the real problem). I blame the system erected by HUMANS called institutional religion(and it's hand in hand brother, government who came after religion) for these events. Individuals carried out the attacks but they in their formative ignorance were educated to be ones to do so.

What Human can plan or carry out this sort of atrocity then look the child of a victim in the eye and say that 'Your Dad died for a GOOD cause'.
The fudamentalist/fanatic will have no trouble doing so. Why, because his view of the world is the ONLY view of the world. Who taught this view to them? .......

As you can see i have VERY strong views on this.
Are we(not only us but our children) but fodder for others to use for their own purposes? Only if WE LET THEM. This is going on not only in the middle east but all over the world. America has it's own flock of brainwiped dupes who follow the words of any SCUMBAG with an agenda. We can stop this cancer in only one way, goverments(who should only ever be the voice of the people) must be MADE to educate children to be Human Beings who have at the core of their world view, objective thought, rationality, imagination, empathy, compassion, understanding and the prime directive.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Nick

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:18 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Like rats, they've all scattered and gone to ground, the murdering bastards.

ED

Exactly, If it was him and his sidekicks, why were THEY not flying into a concrete wall for God?

Nick

I resent the connection to rats. Rats have far more integrity and honour than a fanatic.

And i edit.
Here is my dichotomy. I pity them (the ones who died) for their lack of rationality and free will. And i despise them for their inabillity to, in the final minutes, realise their rationality, free will and humanity.

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 6:52 pm

Terrorism in all forms is unacceptable an the tv-coverage of the Manhattan-devestation was horrendous.

i still think the western world, especially USA, need to take a serious discussion about what causes this type of actions. Why is always the US the prime target? For decades the prime interests in the middle east have been economical, not humanitarian. Millions of people have died as a result of US decisions, poor and innocent people that is. But never have west mourned their death and thats why we can see palestinian kids cheering the news of the WTC disaster.

To bomb the poor people in Afghanistan wont solve a thing. Just give the extremists better oppurtunities to recruit young people to their movement. They see terrorism as their only way(and a justified one) out of their social situation of starvation and misery.

The only way to stop terrorism is to create better living standards for the people and closer and more peaceful relations to the states in the middle-east. Otherwise this thing will continue to go on....

g00dd0ggy · Post by **g00dd0ggy** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 7:35 pm

Kuniworth I hope your post will not be flamed. There can be no excusing this attack and ultimately it will achieve nothing but the spilling of more blood...but of course that too is a victory of sorts for terrorism as it helps polarise the factions and breeds more recruits.

Ultimately there is no easy answer to the terrorist problem, but fighting it with violence is a losing game. Israel has fought violence with more violence, terror with more terror and has simply been caught up in a cycle that becomes harder and harder to break and kills more and more innocent people. Will "going to war against terrorism" achieve more?

I don't know...but probably not. In the UK (I'm English) we knew for many years the main protagonists of Irish Republican violence. They could have been murdered by the UK government, but weren't. The Irish Catholics have some legitimate grievances (my father is an Irish Catholic) and killing suspects without due process would have just escalated things. Of course I do not think we can compare IRA terror in the UK with the attack on the US, the scale is of a different order, and the impact on a nation unused to regular bomb attacks incomparably greater, but the likely impact of reprisals is likely to be the same unless VERY carefully targeted.

I agree with Kuniworth that the USA and the West generally has not taken a neutral line in the Middle East. We are dealing with a religion and society we are not entirely comfortable with, but we are the to some extent the authors of many of its problems (remember the Shah? Creation of Israel?). Israel has been allowed to flout UN Resolutions for years while any Arab country has had them enforced by force or sanctions - there is an imbalance here. Humanitarianism does not drive the West's policies or interest in all this. We are not whiter than white.

That said, if there is any real proof Bin Laden was behind it, then he should be taken out, because he is not truly after anything specific, he has simply declared war on the USA (he did this a while ago) and will not stop - unlike, say the Palestinians, he has no agenda beyond this.

Alot of Brits died in NY too - more than in any single IRA bombing (they think several hundred) and I offer my sympathy to the USA - the stories of individual heroism and suffering have been heartrending. I just hope the terrorists do not succeed in their objective of creating more terror - and if the West lashes out instinctively they will have done so. Those who are guilty should pay, but all too often in taking reprisals it is the innocent who pay with their lives.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:04 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
i still think the western world, especially USA, need to take a serious discussion about what causes this type of actions. Why is always the US the prime target?

Because we are a friend of Israel.

For decades the prime interests in the middle east have been economical, not humanitarian.

We have political and economic interests in the Middle East. Humanitarian? We try, but what do you do when the people you want to help would kill you if they got the chance? Most Arab governments wouldn't accept humanitarian aid from us for fear of a backlash from their own people. Its far more efficient to provide aid indirectly through the UN or NGO groups.

Millions of people have died as a result of US decisions, poor and innocent people that is.

Utter bullshit. Millions of people die because of decisions taken by their OWN GOVERNMENT, not one that is half a world away. Typical anti-US crap. Take this stuff to the ArtWar forum where it belongs, it stinks too much.

But never have west mourned their death

The West doesn't mourn all the deaths because if we did so, we'd be in mourning all the time. Dieing is a very common thing in Africa and the Middle East, you can't expect people thousands of miles away to pay attention to every massacre or mass starvation that happens every DAY over there. After awhile people become numb to what goes on elsewhere and concentrate on what is happening in their own region, country, state, or city. Its a natural reaction that is present everywhere, not just the US.

Besides, we tried to help in Somalia and look what happened. We can't solve all the world's problems, and shouldn't be expected to.

and thats why we can see palestinian kids cheering the news of the WTC disaster.

No, they cheer because they have been taught at an early age that the US is the Great Satan. For them, what was a sectarian conflict over land has become a religious conflict.

To bomb the poor people in Afghanistan wont solve a thing.

Absolutely right, that's why we aren't going to do that, we have no intention or desire to do that. You'll see this for yourself when the time comes. Being an anti-US preacher, you just assume *anyone* we bomb are poor and innocent.

Just give the extremists better oppurtunities to recruit young people to their movement.

They don't need any more opportunities, considering what Palestinian boys are taught, the extremists have plenty of volunteers.

They see terrorism as their only way(and a justified one) out of their social situation of starvation and misery.

No, it only leads to their death, since they're all suicide bombers. Young, gullible, and easily hooked using religious ferver to inspire them.

The only way to stop terrorism is to create better living standards for the people and closer and more peaceful relations to the states in the middle-east.

Bring first world living standards to the Third World? We'll do that just as soon as someone figures out how to make it possible. So far the only recipe anybody has is the following:

a free democratic society
free market economics
population growth under control
comprehensive system of law

and probably a few more....

Otherwise this thing will continue to go on....

Yes, but removing Laden from the equation does make the math easier.

As long as the Palestinians continue to teach hate, and as long as there is Islamic fundamentalism, what do you expect is going to happen?

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:15 pm

Originally posted by g00dd0ggy:
Those who are guilty should pay, but all too often in taking reprisals it is the innocent who pay with their lives.

The innocent always pay because they are the TARGET of terrorism.

Will terrorism disappear any time soon? No, but the world without bin Laden would be a much nicer place. Just look at how he has singlehandedly escalated the scale and scope of terrorism in the world. Taking out his network would be a very good thing.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Mon Sep 17, 2001 12:34 am

"Because we are a friend of Israel."

Its correct that USA partly is the target because the support to Israel but thats not the only reason. Its also important to remember that during the last decades the US supported not only Mujahedin and the talibans against the russian, also IRAQ power was built up by american miltary aid. Why??? Because it suited US economic interests and was anti-Iranish.

In what way do the rich world help the poor people in afghanistan after the soviet retreat? Why was the US so anxious to help Kuwait?

"We have political and economic interests in the Middle East. Humanitarian? We try, but what do you do when the people you want to help would kill you if they got the chance? Most Arab governments wouldn't accept humanitarian aid from us for fear of a backlash from their own people. Its far more efficient to provide aid indirectly through the UN or NGO groups."

Ok. You could then begin with paying up the debts you owe to United Nations.

"Millions of people have died as a result of US decisions, poor and innocent people that is.

Utter bullshit. Millions of people die because of decisions taken by their OWN GOVERNMENT, not one that is half a world away. Typical anti-US crap. Take this stuff to the ArtWar forum where it belongs, it stinks too much."

Ed, I will never give in on this one. The U.N-blocade of Iraq much intiated by america has caused 2 million children and women dead! This is a humanitarian catastrophy. Still Saddam Hussein regain power and his military is beeing built up to the old levels. The blocade have paralyzed the country and doesnt achieve its main goals. Well you can always blame Saddam Hussein. But for god sake how can you let this go on sacrificing innocent people. I know a lot of refugees from nothern IRaq(kurds and so on) how many do you know?

The Israel-matter is delicate. But let us never forget who the weak part is. Palestinian youth is throwing rocks against israelian tanks and helicopters. USA could pressure Israel harder but unfortunately to little. So the conflict rages on...how do you intend to solve it? The hardline that Sharon supports have been tried before and never worked.

"No, they cheer because they have been taught at an early age that the US is the Great Satan. For them, what was a sectarian conflict over land has become a religious conflict."

They cheer because they see their enemy feeling the same pain they do every day. Yes its outrageous but ask your self WHY is always the USA the main target? You cant for all the penny in the world say that your actions in the middle-east only been done for freedom and peace.

"To bomb the poor people in Afghanistan wont solve a thing.

Absolutely right, that's why we aren't going to do that, we have no intention or desire to do that. You'll see this for yourself when the time comes. Being an anti-US preacher, you just assume *anyone* we bomb are poor and innocent."

Your attack on me follows much of your earlier aggresive posts against others in this forum. Im NOT anti-US on the contrary!!! But why the hell can´t you see that something is very wrong here. And believe it or not much of the blame lays not only at arabic dictators but also on USA.

If the talibans not step down the US will be in war with them. You can of course do some surgical strikes but that will most likely also kill innocents. Thats what happened in 1998 and that will happen now. Sure som bad crooks will die but the terrible taliban state will remain. You´re dreaming if you dont realise this.

"They don't need any more opportunities, considering what Palestinian boys are taught, the extremists have plenty of volunteers."

I know a lot of moslems. Most of them are non-hating people who wants to live in peace. But violence feeds violence.

Over the last 50 years the gap between the rich world and the poor world has steadily increased. If you dont agree that social misery and starving feeds disappointment and hatred I see no point discussing. The point beeing that it is harder to commit terrorist-actions against a friend that tries to help you not bomb you. All terrorist-experts Ive heard have agreed on this - why don´t you Ed?

We all got a responsible, so does Sweden. But beeing the nr 1 super-power of the world more should be expected from you.

"They see terrorism as their only way(and a justified one) out of their social situation of starvation and misery.

No, it only leads to their death, since they're all suicide bombers. Young, gullible, and easily hooked using religious ferver to inspire them"

Yes but why do they commit this kind of action. Why is the terrorist attacks against USA steadily increasing? Just a coincidence?

Finally I hope Bin Laden and his movement will be destroyed soon. Make no mistake about it.

regards

/ Andreas

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Mon Sep 17, 2001 1:54 am

ground troops?

BrickReid · Post by **BrickReid** » Mon Sep 17, 2001 2:07 am

Kuniworth,

There is much in your post that needs to be replied to but I will let Ed do it since he disects posts with such skill that I cannot achieve.

I will respond to this quote, however:

Ed, I will never give in on this one. The U.N-blocade of Iraq much intiated by america has caused 2 million children and women dead! This is a humanitarian catastrophy. Still Saddam Hussein regain power and his military is beeing built up to the old levels. The blocade have paralyzed the country and doesnt achieve its main goals. Well you can always blame Saddam Hussein. But for god sake how can you let this go on sacrificing innocent people. I know a lot of refugees from nothern IRaq(kurds and so on) how many do you know?

Kuwait was about economics alright. The economics of the world. The U.S. did what would have had to be done by others if we had not acted. Under no circumstances could the world allow an agressive, expansion minded dictator like Saddam control most of the world's oil. They would have become energy hostages to this would be 4th Reich Saddam dreams of creating.

Also, the starvation of the Iraqi people is DIRECTLY tied to Saddam's taking money from humanitarian sales of oil (that are allowed by the UN resolutions) and rebuilding his military as well as iron fisted control of the Iraqi population. It was in Saddams interest to have a weak population during his own weak time so that he could stamp out any would be opposition. He chose his military and continued reign over his people's need to eat food and have medicine. Don't blame the U.S. for starving children, it shows too much your ignorance of what is really happening. Or maybe it shows you have politically motivated professors in your universities and biased reporters in your press.