Sub Combat

[MrQuiet]

Could someone please inform me what page in the manual has all the rules pertaining to sub combat, especialy when useing multiple subs.

It seams that useing more then one sub in a attack alters there evasion rattings even if they have not been previously fired at.

In my last turn 3 of my 3/3 subs were involved in a naval attack in the Med.

The first sub defended at 12 should be 9
The second sub defended at 6 should be 9
The third sub defended at 6 should be 9 <---damaged by a tranny

None had been previously fired at all had full torpedo ammo.

Same turn I do another sub attack in North Atlantic with 2 subs.

First defends at 12
Second defends at 6

So my only conclusion so far is that the first sub gives away the surprise and the other subs pay with a -1 evasion. Anyone else seen this?

-MrQuiet

Edit- Oh yea I should probably also mention that there was enemy light fleets in both attacks. Maybe they have an effect on sub evasion?

[MrQuiet]

Was a submarine combat rules section written for the manual but somehow never made it in?

[IDrinkBeer]

The first sub defended at 12 should be 9

If the unit shooting at this particular sub had already been hit, a +1 modifier would be added to your subs evasion.

Not so sure about the other 2 subs. Did they take op-fire when moving towards the area in which the attacks took place?

[Paul Vebber]

AFAIK there are no special rules for submarines other than "torpedoes" being required for attack.

When a unit gets a +1 to its evasion in such situations it is usually becasue the firing unit was damaged in a previous round of combat or is unsupplied (I'd wager the latter in this case) - The second and third sub likely had a -1 to its evasion for haing been shot at previously (were tehy OPFIRED at?).

If none of these conditions seems to apply, send a save to paulv@matrixgames.com

[MrQuiet]

Well I have solved it.

I ran a test about 40 times and my conclusion is absolutely consistent.

To run the test just start a fresh 1940 game on normal.
Take the 2 Italian subs and attack the East Med.

The 2 subs will VERY randomly choose and fire at their targets. Any ship that returns fire at the subs but was not targeted by the subs will knock ONE evasion off of the sub even if it is the very first time that sub has been shot at!

I think this is a very important rule that should be in the manual. Probably in the same section that states torpedoes are not effected by armor. That is why I think a section got left out of the manual by accident.

Now on the other end of the evasion, if a firing unit was hit by the sub it does add one evasion to the sub it targets. But we pretty much knew that.

Now I am going to test weather Airpower can negate the advantage that surface ships gain by not being targeted by sub first.

-MrQuiet

[Joel Billings]

This actually sounds like a bug to me (the lower evasion).

[MrQuiet]

This is my first PBEM. Of all the games going on I am surprised no one else has mentioned it. I do very intently watch the battle dramatazation. (I like watching the battles, cursing the screen, and shaking my head at some of the match ups)

Then I usualy go through the after action report and rack my brain as to what each DRM (Dice Roll Modifier) is. They should be color coded or something for a quick clue what they are.

Needless to say my Axis turns (only played axis so far) take a lot of time. No one in there right mind would want to IP/tcp with me.

-MrQuiet

[Paul Vebber]

What appears to be happening is that sub combat is ocuring and then ASW is occuring as a seperate "round" vice "simultaneously" as other naval combat.

SO the Subs evasion is being increased when they are attaked by targets they hit with torpedoes. 1 evasion if damaged, +2 if destroyed.

The oddity is that if a sub MISSES with its shot - it is then treated as "shot at" and loses an evasion. ITs as though the game is treating it as simultaneous at that point (assuming the ship shot at is "firing back") but no combat is resolved.

I actually think this is not a bad representation of the 'flaming datum' that fails to flame... a sub that unloads a spread and misses the old "down the throat" shot (or elsewise) is in the hurt locker...

Subs that "hit" tend to fade away in the confusion and ensuing rescue.

I would leave it as is, but document that Sub vs Ship and ASW are two seperate "rounds' and not simultaneous, (the additions to the sub evasion by hit units is per the normal rules then) and add the bit about a sub that misses is left -1 evasion.

Since they "don't miss" very often once they get to 3 and 4 torp strength, the latter really only applies early on.

[MrQuiet]

What appears to be happening is that sub combat is ocuring and then ASW is occuring as a seperate "round" vice "simultaneously" as other naval combat.

I agree and do not see a problem with it.

The oddity is that if a sub MISSES with its shot - it is then treated as "shot at" and loses an evasion. ITs as though the game is treating it as simultaneous at that point (assuming the ship shot at is "firing back") but no combat is resolved.

I thought you may have seen something I did not so I went back and ran test again.

Conclusion: It does not matter that the sub misses, If sub misses light fleet and light fleet shoots back sub will have its normal evasion.

What really matters to gain surface fleet vs Sub 1st shot advantage (ie sub will be -1 evasion even if it is first time sub has been shot at) is for the surface fleet to have not been targeted by any unit in the battle.

I do not even really have a problem with that rule (except its not stated in manual) because you can reason that a fleet that has not been engaged by any unit and has information that there are subs in the zone probably would have an advantage in hunting the subs. Especialy light fleets/destroyers.

Gary may very well have intended it to work this way. I still think that when you look in the manual under naval combat, submarine warfare should have a section.

-MrQuiet

[Paul Vebber]

I'll have to take a look at it again - thanks for the input!

[marc420]

Sure makes transports something to be feared .... (sub is 2 Ev x 3 Dur)

[marc420]

Pretty much all the important info is in the screen cap.

This happened off the coast of India. I'd taken Egypt, and broken one sub away from the naval battles in the Central Med. The turn before he'd sunk one transport outside the entrance to the Red Sea. This caused the WA merchant fleet to try to scramble for port. These three sets of transports didn't make it, and were sitting out in the sea zone off the coast of India.

This one should have been a sub driver's dream. A mad flurry of merchant ships all scrambling for port, and a lot of them haven't made it in yet. So they are stacked up off the coast. The sub shows up with 2/3rd of his torpedoes left. This one's what they call a turkey shoot. Not a warship in sight. No op-fire sailing unopposed across the Indian ocean to get here. Nothing but a target rich environment. ...... and one dead sub.

[marc420]

As I stare at this picture, I see what happened. It fits the rules. Maybe something should be looked at, but it fits the rules.

First shot on sub is by ship that was damaged by subs attack. Thus its a +1 to evasion. Ev (2+1=3) x Dur 3 =9

Second and third shot is on a target previously fired on. Thus -1 to Ev. Ev (2-1=1) x Dur 3 = 3


Probably some mate putting dynamite in tin cans and dropping them over the side got us. [:@] Still think it 'should' have been a turkey shoot. [;)]

[Paul Vebber]

Remember that a "Transport fleet" is not just a bunch of transports - but does have an integrated escort - that is where the ASW capability comes from. They are DEs and DLs, but still dangerous to subs. So a single sub fleet - going against multiple transport fleets in a large convoy is not necessarily "a turkey shoot" - at least until the sub technology is improved...

In this case - the combat did go exactly in accordance to the rules.

The "weird" case occurs if no damamge is done and "unengaged" ships are present.

[MrQuiet]

Thanks for taking a screen shot, but like Paul said that combat played out per normal rules.

Note subs only fire one time no matter how many tranys, or any other ship for that matter are present. So attacking 3 trannys with only one sub (even a totaly tecked out sub) will at most only gain you one dead tranny.

So in your example sub463 fired on tranny43 and got a hit (almost a kill, 2 more would have done it) and tranny43 fired back but was damaged adding +1 to sub evasion. Then tranny723 and tranny99 each took a turn on the now located sub, since sub463 had already been shot at it lost -1 evasion.

BUT- if the 2 trannys that had not been shot at by the sub got to fire first then the sub would have lost -1 evasion. The outcome would have been the same in your screenshot, one damaged tranny and one dead sub.

-MrQuiet

[aletoledo]

I think I've seen a similair effect, but not with subs, but rather a BB ship. I think it would really help if we could see what some of the modifiers are listed by some small code in a pop-up or something.

[MrQuiet]

I think I've seen a similair effect, but not with subs, but rather a BB ship.

I started testing your observation. I started fresh 1940 game. Attacked the east med with only one Italian BB. The first battle went per norm. BBs exchanged fire (norm evasion) then a light Fleet fired on BB and battle over. Result 2 damaged BB one on each side.

So I then take another Italian BB and attack E Med again. There is still 1 WA BB and 2 WA LF that have not been shot at yet but one LF has fired. This is where a contradiction to the manual happens. The matchup was the Italian BB against a WA LF while the WA BB just watched the battle.

From the manual:

The computer never forces a player to match up a Light Fleet against a Heavy Fleet if a
Heavy Fleet is available.

Result- Dead WA Light Fleet
I have seen this happen lots of times where I say to myself "why is my light fleet engageing his heavy fleet while my heavy fleet sits there and observes. The manual clearly states this should not happen"

On same first turn testing I have been engageing navys in the North Atlantic. And a very interesting detail I have noticed up there is that the sub combat rule I have been going on about earlier in the thread (1st shot advantage of surface fleet on sub(-1sub evasion) if surface fleet has not been targeted by any unit in the battle) only applies to subs in a offending force. Defending subs play by normal evasion rules.

In several different tests the offending German navy fired on sub with a light fleet that had not been targeted in the battle but the defending sub did keep its normal evasion rateing. Again this is something that should be in the Naval Combat section of the manual under 'Submarine Warfare'.

I think I've seen a similair effect, but not with subs, but rather a BB ship.

As for your observation about BBs losing -1 evasion for being shot at by a non targeted unit I could not prove that and do not think I have seen it mostly because surface naval combat does happen simultaneously so whatever surface fleet the BB shoots at will shoot back at the same time hence it has been targeted. (unless you have more engaged fleets then opponent but in that case all of your oppents fleets will/have been targeted)

Sub combat seems to happen in the next phase, and then ASW seems to happen in the phase after that.

-Mrquiet