This is a "board" game?

[markhwalker]

I'm a big Gary Busey fan too. Loved the Buddy Holly movie.

Best,
Mark

[Zap]

Great for those that still have the time for set-up (I know, you said, your game is quick to set-up) and room to set-up. I still would have to vacuum the dust off the pieces as the dust gathers. When you finish a computer game you make a few clicks the game goes to its file. With a boardgame you still have to clean up after.I have not heard of the titles you mentioned, thats how far removed I am from the Boardgame era.

I've played my share of board games (and I've been around a few years) butI can't see myself playing another one. Boardgames are ancient history for me! The computer makes gaming much more enjoyable.

I do like your determination for a aquality game, though. I hope you have success and it will be good for those few who still play war boardgames. I will wait for a good game (squad level) on the computer.

[ravinhood]

Stuff like HeroScape, Warhamer 40K, Settlers of Catan, Memoir '44, and many others outsell everything but big titles like World at War.

Those aren't "wargames", those are "kiddie wannabe a wargamer" type of board wannabe wargames. hehe

Wargames were made by Avalon Hill and SPI and GDW. and Strategy & Tactics and Fire & Movement. (Oh I bet I get some elitist fire outta this post)

[markhwalker]

Hey gauys!

No elitist reply here, but you guys are perhaps a bit out of touch with what's going on in the war and strategy game hobby. For openers, it's not "kiddie wanna be" on two counts: Count One... they are let-the-family-play-something-together-rather-than suck-on-the-glass-teat games... although Settlers of Cataan doesn't fit into this category... neither does Streets of Stalingrad, which has sold over 5,000 units at 150$ a pop! and WH40K... have you ever played a game? Count Two... none of the companies that you mention exist in the form you knew in the 70s. The names in wargaming are GMT, Avalanche, L2, MMP, Games Workshop, Wizards of the Coast.

But hey, if you all prefer computer games that's completely cool by me. I'm not exactly naive in the computer game sector of the hobby (I've written over 40 computer game related books, regular colomnist at PCGamer, Armchair General, here at The Wargamer) myself, but folks need to understand that board games aren't some dusty hobby from the Seventies, but rather a thriving, booming industry that is being rediscovered buy thousands of gamers who are tired of spending their time at a monitor (although that can be fun too). Lock 'n Load has no more in common with stuff like Avalon Hill's 1914 than a Audie R8 ALMS has with your family sedan.

That said, CLnL will also rock... and may be much closer than anyone has imagined.

Best,
Mark

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

Hey gauys!

No elitist reply here, but you guys are perhaps a bit out of touch with what's going on in the war and strategy game hobby. For openers, it's not "kiddie wanna be" on two counts: Count One... they are let-the-family-play-something-together-rather-than suck-on-the-glass-teat games... although Settlers of Cataan doesn't fit into this category... neither does Streets of Stalingrad, which has sold over 5,000 units at 150$ a pop! and WH40K... have you ever played a game? Count Two... none of the companies that you mention exist in the form you knew in the 70s. The names in wargaming are GMT, Avalanche, L2, MMP, Games Workshop, Wizards of the Coast.

But hey, if you all prefer computer games that's completely cool by me. I'm not exactly naive in the computer game sector of the hobby (I've written over 40 computer game related books, regular colomnist at PCGamer, Armchair General, here at The Wargamer) myself, but folks need to understand that board games aren't some dusty hobby from the Seventies, but rather a thriving, booming industry that is being rediscovered buy thousands of gamers who are tired of spending their time at a monitor (although that can be fun too). Lock 'n Load has no more in common with stuff like Avalon Hill's 1914 than a Audie R8 ALMS has with your family sedan.

That said, CLnL will also rock... and may be much closer than anyone has imagined.

[Zap]

a bit out of touch with what's going on in the war and strategy

I'll agree with you there. My perspective is from an wargamer that did not play wargames that would interest the lets-play-together-as-a-family. Although from my perspective my brothers did not realize all the fun they were missing. And so I was limited to playing alone 90% of the time.

Perhaps, I belong to that smaller group of strategy wargamer. Those games you mentioned would not interest most of us. The increase you talk about are those people who have come from playing cliclk-fest games or if you want to be politically correct "those less involved games". But please don't misunderstand me (I at least) don't look down upon them. In fact, I hope that some of these will come to be interested in the" more involved games."

Could I be right in stating that the group of people you talk about. Are probally those who will loose interest quickly and not be prone to come back and buy game after game till your 50 years old (like myself).
Though I can understand the wargaming industry hopes set on those larger numbers of the "less-involved-game"player.

If, your wargame becomes the reason for some of the people who fit into the "less-involved-wargamer" pack to stick around that can only be a positive.

I believe there are some of my kind in this Matrix community Forum. But I was only commenting on my own dissapointment.

For myself who work many hours and have little contact with gamers(I know of none in my vicinity). My only link is through the internent and computer. I have a chance to meet others (if only through e-mail) and have the possibility of playing with another human being. That is just the nature of things for those of us that play the level of game I do. The computer has become a necessity for us.

For those thousands of lucky gamers (you spoke of). Who have the luxury of leaving the computer and finding enough people to play with, they truly are the lucky ones but I have yet the pleasure of meeting one in person. So that I too, can enjoy the one on one gameplay

You even have a provision for (Vassel play) for your boardgame. That is two people (or more) who are playing a boardgame then use a computer to make contact in order to play the game because they are not present to each other physically.

Is'nt that an admission that there are not always going to be the vast number of players to make the boardgame work?

I try not to be disrespectful in my post of anyone but my reply was to reflect a certain(small if you will) movemnt in the market towards squad level game for the computer.

I can be patient for something to come along that fits my needs.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Zap


For myself who work many hours and have little contact with gamers(I know of none in my vicinity). My only link is through the internent and computer. I have a chance to meet others (if only through e-mail) and have the possibility of playing with another human being. That is just the nature of things for those of us that play the level of game I do. The computer has become a necessity for us.

For those thousands of lucky gamers (you spoke of). Who have the luxury of leaving the computer and finding enough people to play with, they truly are the lucky ones but I have yet the pleasure of meeting one in person. So that I too, can enjoy the one on one gameplay

You even have a provision for (Vassel play) for your boardgame. That is two people (or more) who are playing a boardgame then use a computer to make contact in order to play the game because they are not present to each other physically.

I have the same problem

[markhwalker]

Zap... no disrespect taken. I enjoy hearing all these opinions.

Click fest... not really sure they still make those games. Real-time strategy has moved on from the days of Command & Conquer.

Stay tuned.

Best,
Mark

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

Zap... no disrespect taken. I enjoy hearing all these opinions.

Click fest... not really sure they still make those games. Real-time strategy has moved on from the days of Command & Conquer.

Stay tuned.

Best,
Mark

Mark.......they are out there in bucket loads. Only two games I can think of that arent. HTTR and the Close Combat series. Funny how such a golden oldie seemed to get it right first time and ever since then its been downhill all the way.

[markhwalker]

Interesting,

Blitzkreig, Dawn of War, Ground Control, Ground Control II, Desperadoes, Shogun Total War, Rome Total War, MechCommander, MechCommander II, Green Berets, Cossacks, Cossacks II, Antietem, Gettysburg...

That's just the stuff off the top of my head. Each one of those has borrowed heavily from TB games. Some of them do have resourse management, but the game does NOT revolve around it. Oh yeah, and that's just the PC stuff. I didn't even bring up console titles like Full Spectrum Warrior, Aliens vs Predator, Brothers in Ams... again... that's off the top of my head. If I scanned my shelves I'd come up with 25 more.

Gaming has moved on.

Best,

Mark

[Erik Rutins]

Mark,

There are still plenty of RTS click-fest, but it's true that much of the RTS genre has evolved and included Real-Time concepts without a lack of strategy. The derisive "click-fest" term is not just a reference to the contest of interface needs vs. running clock, but to the lack of strategy (he who clicks fastest, produces more units and wins, whee). The problem is that while other genres (Role-playing, Adventure, First Person) have always been well suited to a real-time design, strategists often prefer having plenty of time to think things over and get a lot of enjoyment from the analysis of options that the turn-based model allows. I agree that there are a bunch of titles that have expanded the RTS genre in good directions, but it still has many problems for many wargamers.

I'll comment on two of your examples specifically:

Dawn of War, for me, was a great title because of it's focus on objectives rather than resource gathering. Felt like an actual 40k game and more importantly a game that required some tactics and strategy.

Shogun and Rome Total War though are interesting to mention here. They are actually turn-based games with a real-time battle engine. I don't think they would do as well if the strategic side were real-time as well. Then again, Hearts of Iron is doing well enough, so perhaps I'm wrong on that.

Regards,

- Erik

[wodin]

"Blitzkreig, Dawn of War, Ground Control, Ground Control II, Desperadoes, Shogun Total War, Rome Total War, MechCommander, MechCommander II, Green Berets, Cossacks, Cossacks II, Antietem, Gettysburg..."

Mark 6 of those games I'd say were click fest and Ive played them.

As for the other games youve mentioned like BiA it sjust a bod satndard FPS game when you get down to it. Ghost Recon tried something new however the only FPS worth mentioning is Operation Flashpoint.

[Zap]

I don't think Mark has grasped what we are speaking about. Maybe he should read the thread "Am I livin in a dream world?" in the general discussion section.

[markhwalker]

Yeah, Zap, don't know what you mean. Glanced through "Dream World," and it looked like a bunch of people pining away for old Panzer Battles games (or something). What did I miss.

Wodin... I see our disconnect now. It's in the definition. To me Command and Conquer, the Warcraft series, Total Annihilation, Age of Empires series (including Mythology) are clickfests --no tactics, just econimic strategy. In stuff like Dawn of War... serious tactics matter. Would a turnbased version be better (like Final Libs)? Sure, but is there MUCH to be learned from folks like Relic Enbtertainment? Daggone right. In turn, did they borrow from TB games? Sure. The point is that the bad TB games usually come from design groups that are locked into one way of thinking.

Best,
Mark

[wodin]

I played the demo of Dawn of War and thought it was good by most standards. I actually enjoyed it. However whether I'd enjoy it when thing sbecome to hectic is another matter. I just dont like those collect resource (what ever way they impliment it) and upgrade. Once the game really kicks of I just get swamped with to much micromanagment. I did enjoy it though.

Blitz, AoE, C&C, Warcraft, Sudden Strike, TA, D day,Codename Panzer and all the recent RTS games are just chaotic clickfests to me.

Ive just started play Close Combat V with the GJS mod and I must say it still outshines anything else and when you consider how old the original engine is its quite amazing.

[Zap]

and it looked like a bunch of people pining away for old Panzer Battles games (or something). What did I miss

The point of this thread was to speak about your game being a boardgame as opposed to having a computer version. Too often in the past (at least before Matrix and a handful of others) many of the large producers of wargames went to RTS. This became a source of frustration for former war boardgamers who converted to computer play. There just were not enough quality strategy war games( which allow time for planning/give full control) produced. What you heard from us is a desire to see a tried and true game system "Lock and Load" put to the computer.

In the "Dream World" what your seeing is maybe a little dissapointment/nostalgia expressed in the post you read. Too many bought too many games (some in your list above) that failed to be be anything they were looking for. So now those games sit in the none play pile. Blitzkrieg is one example from your list.
I bought it played a few times and now its a no play unless I don't want to think and just click.
There was nothing to look forward too.

The point I wanted to make is some of us want strategic war games that will meet the standard of games we have known. Games systems that worked giving us many hours of challenge and enjoyment. And it seemed you did'nt (with your list) understand where we were coming from. My idea of strategy and yours seem to be different.

Recent history is very different I know, with all the recent game additions (Matrix).
But I watch sceptically/hoping and many times generalize too much. Criteria for a quality game becomes difficult to determine when you have 100s, each, with his/her personal preferences. But there are some games that shine above the rest.

Maybe what I'm saying doesn't make a good or clear point. And I may not see the big picture but I know what I like to play. Hey, but I do learn a lot in these forums and have been know to change an opinion or two.

[markhwalker]

Maybe what I'm saying doesn't make a good or clear point. And I may not see the big picture but I know what I like to play. Hey, but I do learn a lot in these forums and have been know to change an opinion or two.

Actually, I think you write very well. I do see what you are saying. I think you'll be happy with what you see with LnL.

Best,
Mark

[FlyingElvis]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

I host everything from Formula One to Viginia Tech football forums on the LnL site. You guys want to talk? Talk. Let's have fun.

Best,
Mark

Hey Mark. Big BC fan here! Looking forward to renewing the rivalry with VT. I seem to remember us winning the last one. [:D]

Anyway, I found this thread because I am a recently interested gamer in your series. Good luck with Band of Broth.. err Band of Heroes. [;)]

[Draken35]

Hi Mark,

I must say that I'm impatient to see BoH released...

[markhwalker]

As for BC... yeah, that was such a dismal season. There Tech was, third in the nation, just coming of that great victory over Miami, and what did they do? Lose four of their last five or something like that? Too many prima donnas. Last year was much better. The Tech-BC rivalryis a good one, although we are losing one of the best rivalries.... this is the last year we play West Virginia.

The game will be out soon, guys... very soon. I believe you'll be able to pre-order sometime next week (that isn't an offivcial announcement, just my best guess). We are striving to have the game ready for Origins, it is coming down to the wire.

Best,
Mark