WAW date sytem?????

[marc420]

Leave the dates in the game as they are. They are perfect.

[hakon]

For those (few) that didnt know:

Winter as end of the year dates all the way back to the roman age (whose calendar we still use, slightly modified by Pope Gregory XIII).

In the old roman world, the year begun in march, which can still be noted from the naming of the months september (seventh), october (eight), november (nineth) and december (tenth).

http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~snlrc/encyclopaed ... endar.html

[Espejo]

[;)] Only the many confusions here show me that the system used in WAW here i not though easy to grasp.

I think if you ask people in the street 95% will answer you that a year srats with spring and not with winter.

Perhaps it qould have been easier if the moves where named 1 st quarter , 2nd . quarter etc. no false associations by many players.

[Damien Thorn]

Winter? What is this "Winter" you speak of? Here in Miami we only have two seasons: Hot Summer and cool Summer. [:D]

Even to this day I sometimes get confused between Fall and Spring since they are both about the same (temperature hot but not too hot).

[carnifex]

I think if you ask people in the street 95% will answer you that a year srats with spring and not with winter.

DAMN YOU VIVALDI !!1!!!

This confusion is all his fault, the bastard!

[QBeam]

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

It is a comon misconception (at least in the United States) that winter is the last part of a calendar year. That is incorrect. While it does begin to get cold and snow occasionally during the fall months, "Winter" is actually the first three months of any given calendar year.

Hope this helps!

Mike

It's not a "misconception," it's a "convention." Just as in Europe dates are given day-month-year, but in the U.S. they're given month-day-year. Neither is correct--it's just a convention. It certainly is not any more rational to order the seasons "Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall" on the grounds that the majority of the Winter follows the calendar year--ordering them according to the date on which they first appear during a calandar year is every bit as rational an ordering. On the other hand, Winter has been thought of as the "end of the year" for thousands of years--before we even had this calendar, in fact. It is, therefore, the natural convention to put Winter at the end of the order.

But what causes trouble is when people don't follow conventions. Personally, I prefer listing dates day-month-year, because it makes more sense to the mathematician in me. But I assure you, my refusal to submit to the American convention has caused me nothing but headache. Likewise, WWII references, and especially wargames, have long adhered to the American convention. (I suppose it's another case of "to the victor, the spoils.") I've also found it somewhat confusing and quite irritating that W@W doesn't obey the "Winter last" convention. It's especially annoying because following that convention would have meant that the first year of the game was a complete year, which would make it a bit easier to calculate what turn you're on.

Obviously, this is not a big deal, but it's just a pointless source of confusion. Sadly, I expect it would generate more confusion to try to remedy it at this point...

[Oleg Mastruko]

Qbeam, I agree on a day/month/year issue, BUT...

you "Winter as end of the year" guys have to realize it's not the end of the year that would make problems with your proposed system, it's the BEGINNING of the year that would be totally senseless.

In your proposed system, Spring 41 turn would comprise of January, February, March - hardly a "springtime" anywhere on north hemisphere, and certainly not a trace of "spring" in Russia (which was mentioned so many times as prime example of "winter end of the year" logic).

Summer 41 would be April, May, and June - again hardly "summertime" anywhere I know.

July, August and September - hottest months of the year, would be Fall/Autumn???? [X(][X(]

All this glaring and obvious mistakes just so that you could accomodate your beloved winter in October, November and December, ie Christmas time? [:@] Come on...

(Yes, instead of Vivaldi I blame X-Mas with its snowy, Santa imagery for this confusion.)

O.

[QBeam]

Actually, the seasons are not well correlated with the temperature/precipitation trends. That's because the seasons are defined by the length of the days, rather than by the long-term weather trends.

Obviously, the longer the days, the more energy is added to the local system, and so, generally, longer days means warmer weather. In a system in which heat was not retained, the two sinusoids would be synchronized. But because the Earth's atmosphere retains heat energy, there is a phase difference introduced. So, as we all know from experience, the hottest part of the Summer comes weeks after the Summer Solstice, and the coldest part of the Winter comes weeks after the Winter Solstice.

[QBeam]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Qbeam, I agree on a day/month/year issue, BUT...

you "Winter as end of the year" guys have to realize it's not the end of the year that would make problems with your proposed system, it's the BEGINNING of the year that would be totally senseless.

In your proposed system, Spring 41 turn would comprise of January, February, March - hardly a "springtime" anywhere on north hemisphere, and certainly not a trace of "spring" in Russia (which was mentioned so many times as prime example of "winter end of the year" logic).

Summer 41 would be April, May, and June - again hardly "summertime" anywhere I know.

July, August and September - hottest months of the year, would be Fall/Autumn???? [X(][X(]

All this glaring and obvious mistakes just so that you could accomodate your beloved winter in October, November and December, ie Christmas time? [:@] Come on...

(Yes, instead of Vivaldi I blame X-Mas with its snowy, Santa imagery for this confusion.)

O.

Actually, no--when I read "Winter '41," in the context of WWII, anyway, I actually think to myself "that means roughly Dec. 1940 through February 1941). Because in the context of the war, what's really at issue is this weather--not the calendar, which is calibrated to the length of days. (As I said in my last post, there's a phase difference between the day-length calendar and the weather calendar.) In Russia, Spring begins with the Rasputitsa, and Winter begins when the snow stops the panzers, regardless of what the calendar says.

[jkbthk]

The sequence of seasons (Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall) in a year is scientifically correct. The same applies to a day that it starts at midnight(12:00am).

But the logical mind of humans think differently. If you ask me when a day starts, I will definitely answer that it is about the moment the sun rises. Because to humans life starts at sunrise. The same be with a year. People plan and carry out their work in spring and enjoy the havest in winter.

Of course I can get used to the date system in WaW. Why not? It is only a game. But it is still odd to my logical mind anyway.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: QBeam
Actually, no--when I read "Winter '41," in the context of WWII, anyway, I actually think to myself "that means roughly Dec. 1940 through February 1941). Because in the context of the war, what's really at issue is this weather--not the calendar, which is calibrated to the length of days. (As I said in my last post, there's a phase difference between the day-length calendar and the weather calendar.) In Russia, Spring begins with the Rasputitsa, and Winter begins when the snow stops the panzers, regardless of what the calendar says.

I argued that it would be best to have "W 40/41" which would do away with any confusion whatsoever, and would be scientifically most correct (as it would account for 10 days of winter in Dec), but apparently there was not enough space on the toolbar. Between "winter as last turn" and "winter as first turn" I'd always pick the "winter as first turn" philosophy, though.

O.

[QBeam]

There was an interesting quiz in an issue of Psychology Today back in the mid-80s I remember taking. It had a number of unlabeled figures, which you were asked to label. For example, one of them was a circle, cut into four parts by a horizontal and vertical lines. You were asked to number them, 1-4. Naturally, I labeled them 2, 1, 3, 4, from left-to-right, top-to-bottom. I laughed when I read the "answers," which noted that something like 78% of people asked to do this would label them 1, 2, 3, 4, from left-to-right, top-to-bottom, because that's how people read. The next most common answers were, if I remember correctly, 1, 2, 4, 3, and 4, 1, 3, 2, given by people who just labeled them in clockwise order--the first by people who started with top-left, where you start when you read, and the second by people who started where the clock starts. After that was an answer some women gave, that apparently mapped up with the arrangement of the controls on a stove. Mine was the rarest answer, which, the article noted unenlighteningly (I thought), was "related to a kind of analytic calculus."

The amusing origin of the article was the fact that scientists were then planning control arrangements for the international space station, and discovering that arrangements that were intuitive to some people made no sense at all to others. To Westerners, for example, red buttons say "emergency," but, for obvious reasons, to Chinese Communists red said "safe and effective."

Anyway, my point is the same as before: these are conventions. I don't think one is right--I just think it's very helpful if we stick with the most commonly held convention--even if does mean I have to remember that the quadrants of a circle do not correspond to the unit-circle, and that I have to order my dates month-day-year.

[ratprince]

Bravo Oleg!

I couldnt have said it better myself!

Doesn't that "clear it up" for you "winter at the end of year" guys?

[:'(]

later

Mike

[sveint]

Oh no, something new!

[ratprince]

hmmm....interesting psychology...

I guess, to me, I understand the "confusion" people have, but disagree with the purpose for debating to change it...

The year starts, unequivocally, on January 1st (from a western world, roman calendar-esque frame of reference) This is...."un"-debatable.

Winter fills the FIRST three months of the year (less about 9 days). This is also..."un"-assailable.

Therefore, (using simple practical logic here..) Winter IS the FIRST season of the month.


Regardless of what "convention" (not where I am from!) says about seasons and blah, blah about rebirth , etc..etc.. The point is firm.... Winter IS the first season of the new year, and the game adheres to that scientific and STANDARD convention.

Still not sure what the arguement is and how it is valid??[&:] I mean, dont get me wrong, I love a good debate and all....but, this is kinda....moot? Maybe I need to move into the southern hemisphere to have a different frame of reference! [:'(]

later

Mike

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: QBeam
Anyway, my point is the same as before: these are conventions.

Interesting quiz example. Personally I'd go for clock-logic, thus 4, 1, 3, 2, ie clockwise beginning with upper right "segment".

As for conventions, I think people - at least people in Europe and USA - tend to ignore fall/autumn in their conscious or subconscious mind. [:D]

I guess most people, relying on their "feel", not science, would "rank" months like this:

Jan, Feb - Winter (OK, no problems here)

March, April, May - Spring (first problem, March is technically 70% Winter)

June, July, August - Summer (again, June is 70% Spring)

Late September, maybe half of October - Fall (when it rains and leaves fall off) Perhaps not even this much. This period is oftenly called "Indian summer". (BTW we have similar term involving "summer" in my language, and I guess in other languages too - we call it "grandma's summer", perhaps because summer is "old" by then [:D]) So poor old Fall is discriminated against.

Late Oct, Nov, Dec - Winter again

So, based on how we "feel" we tend to "project" Winter on four, four and a half months (perhaps even more in Russia, Sweden, Alaska and Canada [:'(]), and "shrink" fall on couple weeks when leaves fall and is kinda rainy, but not yet freezing.

But our collective perception is wrong [:-] Fall has to have proper 3 months as any other season [>:]

(This has to be most useless thread on Matrix boards [:D])

O.

[dembe73]

Winter starts in the end of the year according to the Roman calendar. December and the Christmas period are associated with being the last part of the year and as a consequence so is winter.

Just having a turn number displayed rather than only using the seasons would have been more clear.

[eMonticello]

I vote that there should be an option to turn the world upside right and use the Australian seasons. No sense in having a northern hemisphere bias.

http://goaustralia.about.com/b/a/2003_06_29.htm

http://www.a-la-carte-australia-tours.c ... tours.html

[QBeam]

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

hmmm....interesting psychology...

I guess, to me, I understand the "confusion" people have, but disagree with the purpose for debating to change it...

The year starts, unequivocally, on January 1st (from a western world, roman calendar-esque frame of reference) This is...."un"-debatable.

Winter fills the FIRST three months of the year (less about 9 days). This is also..."un"-assailable.

Therefore, (using simple practical logic here..) Winter IS the FIRST season of the month.


Regardless of what "convention" (not where I am from!) says about seasons and blah, blah about rebirth , etc..etc.. The point is firm.... Winter IS the first season of the new year, and the game adheres to that scientific and STANDARD convention.

Still not sure what the arguement is and how it is valid??[&:] I mean, dont get me wrong, I love a good debate and all....but, this is kinda....moot? Maybe I need to move into the southern hemisphere to have a different frame of reference! [:'(]

later

Mike

The problem is, you've adopted an arbitrary test, but don't seem to appreciate that it is arbitrary. I could just as well argue:

"The year starts, unequivocally, on January 1st (from a western world, roman calendar-esque frame of reference) This is...."un"-debatable. The first season to start after the new year is Spring. This is also unassailable. Therefore, using practical logic, Spring is the FIRST season of the year."

More importantly, your choice to order the seasons based on the calendar is itself an arbitrary choice. As I've pointed out already, there are other, far more practical (if not more logical) bases for ordering the seasons. I think the most important of those is common expectation, based on convention. It might be "logical" to express the dates in hexidecimal code, but it's foolish, since it won't be understood by the audience. I'd say putting Winter first is a similar mistake, though, obviously, of a much lesser magnitude.