Airfield and Strike size

[Bombur]

You have to have a number of potential 7s within range of the Home Islands for the B29s....

-In my mods, I mutiply all bombloads by 0,454, thus making possible to operate B-29´s from size 5 airdfields.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter


In the ETO there really were thousands of planes operating out of one hex. I am not sure if this was true of Saipan or not, but there were certainly hundreds there.

Hi,

I don't think that you're right with this statement. Even the big raids in the ETO did not involve thousands of planes. For example, the big raid on Hamburg (Operation Gomorrha) on 24th July 1943 did "only" involve 791 British bombers (next day 122 B-17 of the USAAF attacked in a follow-up attack). And the raid on Dresden 0n 13th February 1945 was carried out by 796 Lancaster bombers (followed the next day by 311 B-17). And in both cases the bombers were not based on airfields in a single 60-mile hex (gamewise) but they launched from airbases that were spread all about the UK (from Scotland to Kent).

K

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter


In the ETO there really were thousands of planes operating out of one hex. I am not sure if this was true of Saipan or not, but there were certainly hundreds there.

Hi,

I don't think that you're right with this statement. Even the big raids in the ETO did not involve thousands of planes. For example, the big raid on Hamburg (Operation Gomorrha) on 24th July 1943 did "only" involve 791 British bombers (next day 122 B-17 of the USAAF attacked in a follow-up attack). And the raid on Dresden 0n 13th February 1945 was carried out by 796 Lancaster bombers (followed the next day by 311 B-17). And in both cases the bombers were not based on airfields in a single 60-mile hex (gamewise) but they launched from airbases that were spread all about the UK (from Scotland to Kent).

K

What about the fighters?

[Kereguelen]

Hi,

I think the RAF components of these raids were unescorted (because they were night attacks). Don't know if USAAF-part of the raid on Hamburg had fighter cover (but seems not very probable).

The attack on Dresden was accompanied by 316 P-51 (altogether, there were 150 bombers more that hit different targets in nearby Czechlovakia, parts of the escort accompanied them; altogether there were 466 bombers and 316 escorting fighters hitting different targets).

But to give a more complete picture for 14th February 1945: On this day the 8th Airforce did attack Germany with 1377 bombers (B-17 and B-24) escorted by 962 fighters (P-51 and P-47). Losses were 1 B-17, 1 B-24 and 1 P-51 (but at this time there was nearly no opposition from the Luftwaffe).


[Btw, one day before there were only 9 B-24 over Germany, dropping leaflet over Germany and the Netherlands].

K

[rtrapasso]

But to give a more complete picture for 14th February 1945: On this day the 8th Airforce did attack Germany with 1377 bombers (B-17 and B-24) escorted by 962 fighters (P-51 and P-47). Losses were 1 B-17, 1 B-24 and 1 P-51 (but at this time there was nearly no opposition from the Luftwaffe).

Well, then this is 2000+ - course, they probably didn't all start in 1 "hex".

BTW - where are the hex boundaries in Southern England?[:D][:'(]

[Kereguelen]

Well, my posts about the ETO were somewhat off topic. But here are some accounts about operations of the USAAF in the PTO for good measure. I've chosen the week of the Battle of Midway simply because it seems to be an interesting example. I think if one reads these reports one gets a good idea how many planes were involved in strikes (and thus how many planes were launched from single airfields/bases). Reports for later operations are somewhat more accurate regarding the exact numbers of planes involved, but many PBEM players should be in June 42 by now.

It's a pity that I don't have figures about the Japanese, but it's hard to believe that their operations involved more planes.

(Quite interesting is the scope of operations in that B-17's and LB-30's were involved at this time).


MONDAY, 1 JUNE 1942

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS (10th Air Force): 5 heavy
bombers attack the Rangoon, Burma dock and harbor area, claiming 1 tanker
sunk and another left listing.
436th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves
from Karachi to Allahabad, India with B-17Es; first mission is 4 Jun.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, 5th Air Force): B-17s attack Lae and Salamaua,
New Guinea and Rabaul, New Britain Island.

TUESDAY, 2 JUNE 1942

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, 7th Air Force): 6 of 16 B-17s that have been on
detached service at Midway Island return to Oahu, Territory of Hawaii.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, 5th Air Force): B-17s bomb the dock and
military camp area at Rabaul, New Britain Island.
39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, moves from Woodstock, Australia
to Port Moresby, New Guinea with P-39s; first mission is today.

WEDNESDAY, 3 JUNE 1942

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS (10th Air Force): A flight of 6 B-25s of the 11th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), earmarked for China, take off from Dinjan, India for China. They
bomb Lashio, Burma en route to Kunming, but afterward 9 crash into an
overcast-hidden mountain at 10,000 feet (3,048 m) and another is abandoned
when it runs out of fuel near Chan-i, China. The remaining 2 B-25's reach
Kunming, China, 1 with its radio operator killed by a fighter.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, 7th Air Force): Preliminary action begins in the
Battle of Midway. 9 B-17s, flying out of Midway Island, attack 5 large
warships 570 miles (912 km) off Midway, claiming 5 hits and several near
misses. 7 other B-17s leave Oahu, Territory of Hawaii and fly to Midway.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, 5th Air Force): B-17s hit the wharf, warehouse
area, and military camp at Rabaul, New Britain Island.

THURSDAY, 4 JUNE 1942

ALASKA (11th Air Force): A carrier-borne force strikes again as 11 bombers,
10 fighters and 8 torpedo bombers attack Dutch Harbor in several waves. 2
P-40s intercept 4 bombers just before noon over Umnak Pass and shoot down 3.
During the afternoon P-40s intercept 9 fighters; a dogfight claims 1 enemy
aircraft and 1 P-40, the Eleventh Air Force's first combat casualty. AA fire
claims another Japanese bomber. During the afternoon 2 B-17s and 5 B-26s
attack the carrier force, and 3 more B-26s strike the cruiser TAKAO; no hits
are scored; 1 B-24 and 1 B-25 fail to return.
36th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 28th Composite Group, based at Ft
Greeley, Kodiak Island with B-17Es and LB-30s, sends detachments to operate
from various bases in the Aleutian Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS (10th Air Force): 2 heavy
bombers bomb Rangoon, Burma, but are attacked by 10 fighters; 1 heavy bomber
is shot down and the other badly damaged. This raid ends 2 months of
harassing strikes against Rangoon; soon all heavy bombers are grounded by the
monsoons.
11th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), is
established at Kunming, China with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, 7th Air Force): Battle of Midway. 4 B-26s, in
conjunction with US Navy (USN) torpedo bombers, attack a carrier; 2 of the
B-26s are shot down. In further morning action 14 B-17s attack a task force
approaching Midway at a distance of 145 miles (232 km); they claim several
hits on carriers and 2 Zekes shot down. In the late afternoon 2 B-17s attack
a carrier force at 31-40N 179-10W, claiming hits on a battleship and a
carrier and 9 aircraft shot down; 4 other B-17s claim a hit on heavy cruiser
185 miles (296 km) from Midway. 6 B-17s, en route to Midway from Hawaii, bomb
ships 170 miles (272 km) from Midway, claiming hits on a burning carrier, the
HIRYU, hit earlier in the battle, and a destroyer, which is claimed sunk.

FRIDAY, 5 JUNE 1942

ALASKA (11th Air Force): 18 B-26s, 10 B-17s and 2 LB-30s search and attack
sorties are flown against the carrier force, the B-26s splitting into 3
missions, the B-17s into 2. No contact is made. The B-17s using radar bomb
targets which look like ships, but later turn out to be the Pribilof Islands.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, 7th Air Force): The Battle of Midway continues with
the Japanese fleet retiring westward. In the morning 8 B-17s hit a force 130
miles (208 km) from Midway Island, claiming hits on 2 large warships.
During the afternoon 6 B-17s claim hits on a heavy cruiser 300 miles (480 km)
from Midway. The last strike by Seventh Air Force aircraft in the Battle of
Midway is by 5 B-17s which bomb a heavy cruiser 425 miles (680 km) from
Midway. 1 B-17 is shot down and another lost due to fuel shortage. The
battle ends with Midway's installations heavily damaged by bombs but still in
US hands and with landing strips still intact. During the fighting (3-5 Jun)
Seventh Air Force aircraft carried out 16 B-17 attacks (55 sorties) and 1
torpedo attack by 4 B-26s, claiming 22 hits on ships and 10 fighters shot
down. 2 B-17s and 2 B-26s were lost. One of the decisive battles of naval
history, Midway will cost Japan the initiative and will be a turning point
in the Pacific war.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, 5th Air Force): B-17s hit wharves, a warehouse,
and coal jetty at Rabaul, New Britain Island.

SATURDAY, 6 JUNE 1942

ALASKA (11th Air Force): Various bomber search-attack missions are flown in
an attempt to contact the fleet reported near Seguam Island. No contact is
made due to weather. 8 P-38s enroute from Cold Bay to Umnak Island mistakenly
attack a Soviet freighter. The Japanese begin to land on Kiska Island.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, 7th Air Force): B-17s maintain a search out of
Midway Island. 6 B-17s mistakenly attack a US submarine, which later reports
no damage. More B-17s arrive on Midway from Oahu, Territory of Hawaii.

SUNDAY, 7 JUNE 1942

ALASKA (11th Air Force): Japanese troops invade Attu Island. More troops
are put ashore on Kiska Island. An enemy airplane is sighted over Cold Bay
but cannot be intercepted.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, 7th Air Force): Major General Clarence L Tinker,
Commanding General 7th Air Force, is lost during the night of 6/7 Jun while
leading a flight of LB-30s from Midway Island for a predawn attack on Wake
Island.

MONDAY, 8 JUNE 1942

ALASKA (11th Air Force): 1 LB-30 flies armed patrol over Kiska and Umnak
Islands and discovers Japanese naval units in Kiska Harbor.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

But to give a more complete picture for 14th February 1945: On this day the 8th Airforce did attack Germany with 1377 bombers (B-17 and B-24) escorted by 962 fighters (P-51 and P-47). Losses were 1 B-17, 1 B-24 and 1 P-51 (but at this time there was nearly no opposition from the Luftwaffe).

Well, then this is 2000+ - course, they probably didn't all start in 1 "hex".

BTW - where are the hex boundaries in Southern England?[:D][:'(]

Southern England alone would include several hexes (London alone would fill out one hex)...

And among them some pretty big bases (and I think that the UK was somewhat more developed than Ceylon).

[Cutman]

Gents,

Also USMC historical has the amount of Marine aircraft on Okinawa 30-45 days after the invasion as 700 planes. That does not include Army/Navy numbers. Obviously, that is two hexes, but I am pretty sure that they had many of there own planes also.

The ability to Control of large amounts of aircraft greatly increased into 44. Is it possible to change the penalty by year to reflect this?

Cutman

[freeboy]

The issue is that we can launch huge raids nad destroy japs planes on the ground with massive daylight raids... I think all the Jap fighters should at least have the ability to land a a different base, if theres is destroyed they will be taken out the next turn as game is now.. so its not justthe numbers of planes serviced, its whatis happening.. see aar Histroy repeats ...
Zeat16 aloso staarted a thread about slowing down the game pace.. As it gets frenetic in 44

[Cutman]

Freeboy,

I have read yours and Zeta's AAR. It is really good info on the later war years![&o] I agree with your idea also. It makes sense to allow aircraft to land at other airfieds. I tend to agree with Mogami's Ops point idea on how to slow down the game.


Cutman

[freeboy]

Tokyo now being attacked.. It will be an iunteresting test to see if I can sustain losses enough to bamb it to dust.. or if I will need to break off attacks, Iwo only at 4 now btw..

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Tokyo now being attacked.. It will be an iunteresting test to see if I can sustain losses enough to bamb it to dust.. or if I will need to break off attacks, Iwo only at 4 now btw..

How many 29 groups do you have working? I don't remember if you said.
If everything is right with the world, send about 6-8 groups over at 10k at night/manpower and bring the weinies.
Don't forget to send recon over before and after for BDA.

[freeboy]

several each in MArcus and Iwo, MArcus doing fireboming at night and iwo groups daylight escorted anti airbase raids in day

[Tom Hunter]

Freeboy,

An issue is the ability to bomb the Japanese flat, and its a very important issue, but its not the one that started the thread.

Kereguelen, Your post on the Dresden raid: 796 Lancaster bombers (followed the next day by 311 B-17). is over 1100 aircraft. If you ad fighters its more, and there were other raids from the same area as well. Though I have not looked into it, I don't think bomber command or 8th airforce was flying raids from Scotland to German, I think they had a huge concentration of aircraft in East Anglia, which on a WitP map is 3-4 hexes of area.

I also doubt that London fills a hex, I think its less than 30 miles from one end to the other in any direction.

moving back to the Pacific I was under the impression that the Japanes had over 600 aircraft on Taiwan in preperation for the US attack on the Philipines, and that they were hopeing to get similar or larger numbers together for what turned into the Mariana's Turkey Shoot, though the US prevented them from concentrating the way they wanted to.

The formations fighting in India in your game seem large to me, but not way out of line. And there is a price to be paid by the Japanese for concentrating like that, especially in a level 4 airfield hex.

[freeboy]

My question is: Is this working as intended? Air strikes from small airfields with more planes that launched in the big attacks against strategic targets in the ETO (or later against Japan proper from Saipan

origanal

moving back to the Pacific I was under the impression that the Japanes had over 600 aircraft on Taiwan in preperation for the US attack on the Philipines, and that they were hopeing to get similar or larger numbers together for what turned into the Mariana's Turkey Shoot, though the US prevented them from concentrating the way they wanted to.

The formations fighting in India in your game seem large to me, but not way out of line. And there is a price to be paid by the Japanese for concentrating like that, especially in a level 4 airfield hex.

tom

I think the origanal ?? regarded how the game mechanics worked via large raids and airfield size, and one must ask, is it realistic? I think maybe it is too fast.. ie you can run planes too often, but historically the US did level JApan, destroyed her fleets and industry.. leaving little left to attack in 1945 at wars end..
So not to quible, the effects of my firstrounds of attacks on Tokyo are applicable as I see the thread.. no hijack intended...[&o]