Island hopping?

[Uncle_Joe]

Teching the subs up to 3-3 and getting up to 10 of them is going to detract from the efforts against Germany.

Not to mention that this is no guarantee of a success. It takes a lot less research to get Light Fleets and one aircraft type to 2 ASW than it will take the Allies to get the above. ASW 2 vs Evasion 3 subs is a crap shoot, but they will take the subs down.

That said, I think going with subs is a very viable threat for the WAllies. But it most likely wont work alone. You can make a mess of the Japanese econ for a few turns this way, but 3-3 subs are more often damaging, not destroying the transports so they will be back.

Of course a constant commited flow of subs to the Pacific will eventually bring Japan to her knees...of that there is no doubt. But that commitment will cost you on the other side of the pond.

One other note is the tactics like this work far better with FoW on. I tend to play with it off as I play a lot of 'hotseat' games and its just easier to see it all than worry about it. It makes for a different (but certainly not inferior) game. But if your opponent sees you cranking sub tech and building a lot of subs, be assured that he will try to compensate. With FoW on, its far harder for Japan to predict how the US will come at them and increases the chances of the subs doing crippling damage dramatically.

[Grifman]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

ASW 2 vs Evasion 3 subs is a crap shoot, but they will take the subs down.

Yeah, but it's a crap shot the WA can afford and the Japanese can't

[Uncle_Joe]

*shrug* I've never had any problems having ASW at 2 by W'42 as the Japanese. Getting an aircraft and the Light Fleets to ASW 2 is only ~13 RPs. To get the Allied Subs to 3-3 requires about 19 depending on whether or not you've started to build any for ready use. I dont tend to have that kind of research to 'burn' as the Allies in the early war due to the need to keep Air and ASW up for the German front. I'm not saying its not possible, but its not as easy as it looks.

A 2 ASW means vs a 3 Evasion sub, a hit is scored a bit less than 30% of the time. However, the 2nd shot hits almost 75% of the time. This makes it tough for Subs to survive in the face of determined Light Fleets and ASW aircraft. 3-3 Subs hit a Light Fleet around 35% of the time (and are helpless against Air), but often target transports in the same region instead. A wolfpack of 3-3 subs would be hard to deal with as Japan, but not impossible. They will certainly take a lot of transport losses, thats for sure. I just dont think that you can have that many 3-3 subs early enough to take Japan down before she can do significant damage to India or Russia (depending on which way she goes).

Obvious a lot depends on what Germany manages to accomplish in terms of forcing the WAllies to replace losses. It also depends on on how much Lend Lease is needed for Russia and on how much a commitment the WAllies are making to North Africa and the defense of England.

So, while its certainly possible to defeat Japan with subs alone, I dont think its the most cost-effective way of doing business. A more balanced approach can pay higher dividends and leave more research and units for the (more important) German front.

[Grifman]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

*shrug* I've never had any problems having ASW at 2 by W'42 as the Japanese. Getting an aircraft and the Light Fleets to ASW 2 is only ~13 RPs. To get the Allied Subs to 3-3 requires about 19 depending on whether or not you've started to build any for ready use. I dont tend to have that kind of research to 'burn' as the Allies in the early war due to the need to keep Air and ASW up for the German front. I'm not saying its not possible, but its not as easy as it looks.

Sorry, but no one said anything about accomplishing this by 1942 All we were saying is that it isn't hard to cut the Japanese off from the SRA - no one said "when". But by mid to late 43 you can put a world of hurt on the Japanese with 6 subs at 3 evasion/3 torpedo. And if the Japanese is putting ASW into Light Fleets and Aircraft, then that's research he desperately needs elswhere - like CAG - and can't.

[Uncle_Joe]

No, you dont have to have the subs ready by W42, but Japan can easily have her defenses for such readied by then.

So far, what I tend to have researched by the time I kick off war with the WAllies:

1 CAG Evasion
1 CAG Torpedo
1 Light Fleet ASW

This allows enough other production to 'cull the herds' every turn in China and to added a few needed tranports to the fleet. If you get unlucky vs Chinese Flak, you might not be able have all the above ON the W42 turn, but can do so before you encounter any WAllied Subs or Carriers. If you get lucky with the Flak, you can add a few more TRs, a little more supply, or else start teching something else.

I think it wouldnt be too bad to replaces the CAG torpedo with CAG (or Heavy) ASW if you feel the threat is coming (ie, you see the sub research starting).

Honestly I feel that the WAllies have a harder time freeing up RPs for Subs than the Japanese have for getting ASW. Sub Durability is only 2, so you get extremely diminishing returns out of it. Also, the WAllies have to kind of be 'jack of all trade' as they need completely different units in the different theatres.

I had one WAllied game where I was so concentrated on Air and Sea that when I finally conducted D-Day in '44, my ground units were HOPELESSLY outclassed! [X(] It was a very painful learning experience to lose that many units to little gain, but it taught me that the WAllies have to research almost EVERYWHERE to be effective. Japan has to concentrate only on her little corner of the world and really only one 1 style of opponent in a standard strategy game.

[James Ward]

No, you dont have to have the subs ready by W42, but Japan can easily have her defenses for such readied by then.

3-4 WA subs can just about shut down the SRA. Since there isn't much use for them in the Atlantic any built/repaired on the South/East US coast or in the UK just go to India and go to work. Japan can bump that up ASW all they want but it's no good if the light fleets and air groups aren't sitting with the transoprts each turn because the subs can hit and get back to port. And if that's where they are then there isn't much protection for the Carriers and Heavies.

Of all the sides I think Japan is definately the most challenging to play!

[Uncle_Joe]

One thing I've noticed in the game is that Light Fleet afford very little 'added protection' for Carriers and Heavies EXCEPT vs Subs. So, if the Allies are using their subs to raid the SRA and retreat in India, then that is where the Light Fleets go. They arent needed to 'escort' the Carriers. It takes some getting used to, but I'll often send the Carriers out 'alone' or with a few BBs for AA purposes. The Light Fleets contribute almost nothing to their non ASW defense.

[RodentDung]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe


This allows enough other production to 'cull the herds' every turn in China

Funny!! [:D]