Combined Historical Scenario - Land Units

[Don Bowen]

Based on excellent input from Iron Duke and Kereguelen, I've come up with the following possible changes to the Indian OOB. Some of these units (1 tank and 2 infantry brigades) were training units which will have low experience. Two other Infantry Brigades arrive very late in the war. Still working on possible arrival dates, etc, but I hope to place enough forces in India to counter an early invasion.

Divisions (removals):
3rd Division
17th Division
14th Division


Brigades (adds):
3 Infantry
26 Infantry (unless British 36th Division is added)
48 Gurkha
50 Tank
63 Infantry
75 Infantry
77 Chindits
99 Infantry
111 Chindits
115 Infantry
150 Infantry
155 Infantry
251 Tank

(net gain, 2 Tank and 2 Infantry Brigades)


Regiments (adds - mostly Corps Troops):
1st Assam Rifles
25th Gurkha Rifles
1st Medium Artillery
6th Medium Artillery
8th Medium Artillery
8th Belfast Heavy AA


Engineers (adds - these were Corps Troops):
10th Engineer Battalion
12th Engineer Battalion
16th Engineer Battalion
17th Engineer Battalion
20th Engineer Battalion

As always, comments appreciated. However any complete re-work of the Indian Army will have to wait until after the mass of work around V1.5 and re-spawning is completed.

Don

[Don Bowen]

Based largely on the changes to Scenario 15 made in the V1.5 release, I am recommending some changes to the replacement rates of some squads in CHS. The ANZAC, British, Indian and Commonwealth values are identical to Scenario 15. I'm also reducing all Philippine Scout squads to 3 as few replacements were available. The slight increase in PA squads represents the reporting of reservists. I've also upped the rate on Gurkha Squads to 4 as we will have two Gurkha brigades and a specific training unit existed for Gurkha.

Comments appreciated.

[Central Blue]

Tristanjohn,

thanks for the encouragement. I've been otherwise engaged lately. Waiting for 1.5, taxes, work, vacation, life, playing other games as "research."

Interesting site here for British artillery OOB, TOE, weapon detail, etc:

http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/regtintro.htm

The guy who put it together really deserves better than a tripod.com website.

I hope to re-engage on my efforts in the near future. [broken record]I can't help but wonder if the Japanese could blitz through India or the Soviet Union if they were facing accurate arty TOE's with accurate arty TOE's.[/broken record] And it's hard to believe that a game that tracks individual details on aircraft down to "who" flew the plane, there's some larger reason why this game can't handle 60mm mortars, or MG's as anti-personnel weapons when placed on the ground -- especially when the games promises: "individual vehicles, aircraft, guns and squads."


We shall see how far I get -- and when!

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

Tristanjohn,

thanks for the encouragement. I've been otherwise engaged lately. Waiting for 1.5, taxes, work, vacation, life, playing other games as "research."

Interesting site here for British artillery OOB, TOE, weapon detail, etc:

http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/regtintro.htm

The guy who put it together really deserves better than a tripod.com website.

I hope to re-engage on my efforts in the near future. [broken record]I can't help but wonder if the Japanese could blitz through India or the Soviet Union if they were facing accurate arty TOE's with accurate arty TOE's.[/broken record] And it's hard to believe that a game that tracks individual details on aircraft down to "who" flew the plane, there's some larger reason why this game can't handle 60mm mortars, or MG's as anti-personnel weapons when placed on the ground -- especially when the games promises: "individual vehicles, aircraft, guns and squads."


We shall see how far I get -- and when!

Well, don't wait too long. It takes a while to incorporate changes.

[Central Blue]

Tristanjohn,

it's not my goal to effect this stage of the process other than to get people thinking about something besides the numbers of 20mm rounds carried by some version of the A-20.

Heck, I want to play what you're working on and I don't want to slow it down. This game will be around long enough for lots of fiddling. This game will always be closer to Harpoon than it will be to Steel Panthers Joins the Navy.

[jwilkerson]

In looking through this thread it isn't clear to me who "owns" the IJA OB ... I thought it was Lemurs .. but not sure ...

Anyway, several folks [ incluing moi ] are looking to work on China some more ... terrain and cities and resources ... and also OB .. for Chinese .. but when we find mistakes in IJA OB we will need a POC.

For example, starting locations ... the Pakhoi-Nanning IJA troops should not be in these locations - this area was completely evacuated Nov 40 ... the 19 Mx Bde should start in Canton not Nanning. Also the 4th Division, 21st Division, 33rd Divisions all start in the incorrect locations ... I think in the case of the 4th Division it is being confused with the 4th DEPOT Division. The 4th [ Infantry ] Division should start in Shanghai. The 4th Division was under direct control of the IGHQ thus I can be assigned to an unrestricted HQ ... also the 21st and 33rd Divisions had been assigned to SAA thus no PP need to be paid for any of these divisions ( good news for IJA ) but they need to be in the right places.

So, to whom do we pass such data ? And is this the right place to do it ?

[Lemurs!]

The 4th division IJA was placed in Japan by Matrix to help the AI plan the invasion of the Indies and to limit players abilities as Japan to conquer China quickly at war start.
I agree with this logic so i did not move the division.

The 19th mixed Brigade and base force will move back to Canton, we knew this but did not really change anything in China before the Alpha release.

The 21st division at Shanghai should be SAA. The 33rd Division is Burma army in the CHM isn't it? Should be anyway.

Mike

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

In looking through this thread it isn't clear to me who "owns" the IJA OB ... I thought it was Lemurs .. but not sure ...

Anyway, several folks [ incluing moi ] are looking to work on China some more ... terrain and cities and resources ... and also OB .. for Chinese .. but when we find mistakes in IJA OB we will need a POC.

For example, starting locations ... the Pakhoi-Nanning IJA troops should not be in these locations - this area was completely evacuated Nov 40 ... the 19 Mx Bde should start in Canton not Nanning. Also the 4th Division, 21st Division, 33rd Divisions all start in the incorrect locations ... I think in the case of the 4th Division it is being confused with the 4th DEPOT Division. The 4th [ Infantry ] Division should start in Shanghai. The 4th Division was under direct control of the IGHQ thus I can be assigned to an unrestricted HQ ... also the 21st and 33rd Divisions had been assigned to SAA thus no PP need to be paid for any of these divisions ( good news for IJA ) but they need to be in the right places.

So, to whom do we pass such data ? And is this the right place to do it ?

You are correct - Lemurs does own the Japanese OOB. However, he may be unavailable for a while.

Perhaps it might be best to post your recommendations directly on the forum. This would give Mike a chance to review them. If you keep them simple enough and specific enough I could probably put them in (something like "move the 4th Infantry Division to Shanghai and assign to Imperial General HQ").

Appreciate your help with this.

Don

[jwilkerson]

Don/Andrew,

Here is everything in one place regarding the 6 new cities from my perspective.


Base Tsinan (53,32)
Airfield: 1(4)
Resources: 30
Manpower:2
Heavy Industry:10
Garrison: 160

Base Suchow (52,34)
Airfield: 1(4)
Resources: 30
Manpower:2
Heavy Industry:10
Garrison: 70

Base Ningpo (52,40)
Airfield: 1(4)
Port: 1(1)
Garrison: 50

Base Liuchow (41,37)
Airfield: 1(4)
Garrison: 20

Base Linfen (50,30)
Airfield: 1(3)

Base Tuyun (41,35)
Airfield: 1(4) * Note: We still thinking about the airbase size on this one
Garrison: 10

Troop relocations to support addition of six new cities

Liuchow

IJA 19 Mx Bde to Canton.
IJNA 124 Base Force to Haiphong

No road or trail:
41,40
41,41
44,42
46,42,
47,42
48,42
48,41
48,40

Add road 44,41


Chinese 91st Corps to Pakhoi
Chinese 28th Corps, 10th Group Army, 3rd War Area to Nanning

100th Chinese Corps to Liuchow

Ningpo

IJA 15 Div to Soochow
IJA 17 Mx Bde to Ningpo
IJA 4 Div to Shanghai assigned to Southern Area Army

Linfen

Note spelling changed from Linfin.

No road or trail 51,28.


3rd New Chinese Corps to Linfen.

Tuyun

Troops already present.

Tsinan

IJA 16 Mx Bde

Suchow

IJA 3 Mx Bde
IJA 9 Mx Bde

[bstarr]

Andrew is also looking at a monsterous 1937 map of china I emailed to him. I'm not sure if any changes will come from this or not. I'm not sure how helpful the map will be. I did notice there were some differences around Yenan and the didn't seem to be a coastal road in china, but this may alter the game too much to be worth the detail. Ol' Andy's a better judge of that lil' ol' me; I'm sure he'll figure out what to do or what not to do.

[jwilkerson]

From my reading - in general - when the Japanese wanted to move something up and down the Chinese coast, they went by boat ... in the game they go by land ... removing the non-existent coastal road net would encourage "historical" behavior .. but I agree this ( and everything ) needs to be tested. But remember CHS is just ALPHA right now !

[Lemurs!]

Don I am not really qualified for the Indian army; i think you, Iron Duke, and Kerguelen are doing great on this!
Is this going to make it in soon?

The only thing i can say on India is be careful! These troops existed but Britain did not trust them. They would have fought to defend India but most units would never have left India.
We do not want to 'fix' this so Britain can overrun Burma in late '42.
Remember, even in '44 with air superiority the British had major difficulties in Burma.

Pry and I will have to disagree on 4th division as the majority of my sources say it was shipped back to Japan in November '41 for retraining and rest.
Same with the 2nd division.

Mike

[Andrew Brown]

The only thing i can say on India is be careful! These troops existed but Britain did not trust them. They would have fought to defend India but most units would never have left India.
We do not want to 'fix' this so Britain can overrun Burma in late '42.
Remember, even in '44 with air superiority the British had major difficulties in Burma.

I agree. Perhaps we should seriously consider doing what pry has done - add some garrison forces to Indian base forces and making them static. I have actually made the suggestion of doing something similar for the Chinese, but didn't get much support for the suggestion at the time (and I still don't know if it is a good idea).

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

The only thing i can say on India is be careful! These troops existed but Britain did not trust them. They would have fought to defend India but most units would never have left India.
We do not want to 'fix' this so Britain can overrun Burma in late '42.
Remember, even in '44 with air superiority the British had major difficulties in Burma.

I agree. Perhaps we should seriously consider doing what pry has done - add some garrison forces to Indian base forces and making them static. I have actually made the suggestion of doing something similar for the Chinese, but didn't get much support for the suggestion at the time (and I still don't know if it is a good idea).

I'll take a look at Pry's stuff tonight. I did review what we are planning to add to the Indian Army. The net increase is not that much. With removing divisions and adding brigades the net change is only 4 brigades. Of the Brigades, three are training (low exp), one tank brigade forming, and two infantry brigades late war. Also one brigade (and one artillery rgt) on the NW Frontier that is actually an earlier-arrival, not new. I also reviewed the artillery regiments based on an excellent web site posted recently and deleted two of the artillery regiments I had planned on adding. The early war increase is primarily low-readiness Brigades that are really only available for emergency use.

[jwilkerson]

Also as it stands now I know of 2 PBEM games where allied player took all units out of India and shipped them to DEI / Oz ... having them in the SEA Command which is unrestricted is the problem ... if we could create a restricted command "India Command" they could still invade Burma ... but at least couldn't get on boats and go to DEI / Oz.

Regarding IJA 4 Division ... all sources I have showing a 4 xxx Division in Japan are showing the 4th DEPOT Division ... all sources for 4th ( Infantry ) Division show that unit in Shanghai ... to wit for example US Army Green Book THE FALL OF THE PHILIPPINES page 55.

Lemurs, what sources are you seeing that show IJA 4th Infantry Division elsewhere ?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Don/Andrew,

Here is everything in one place regarding the 6 new cities from my perspective.
Base Tuyun (41,35)
Airfield: 1(4) * Note: We still thinking about the airbase size on this one
Garrison: 10

I now agree that Tuyun probably should be smaller, maybe a 1(3), or even a 0(3)? 0(0) seems very harsh for an inland location.

I didn't realise that the garrison values were in the data file. I will have to set these for my scenarios as well.

I also have a new list of base name corrections, thanks to Tristanjohn:

Songkhia (24,43): change to Singora

Khota Bharu (24,45): change to Kota Bharu

Kiungahan (39,41): change to Kiungshan

Luang Prabang (34,36): change to Luangprabang

Paotang (53,29): change to Pioting (should be Paoting but this will require a MAP FIX)

Bonin (65,50): change to Bonin Islands

Tongatapu (90,121): change to Tongarapu

Bikini (80,80): change to Bikini Atoll

Ha'apai Island (91,119): change to Ha'apai

Batan Island: change to Batan Islands

Lastly, I am considering adding a new base to Malaya, in hex (23,47), so that there is not an unimpeded railway line from Kota Bharu to Johore Bahru. For those who have playtested CHS or my map - do you think that this is a good idea? Is it even necessary? The base would be an airfield of, say, value 0(1).

Andrew

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

...

Lastly, I am considering adding a new base to Malaya, in hex (23,47), so that there is not an unimpeded railway line from Kota Bharu to Johore Bahru. For those who have playtested CHS or my map - do you think that this is a good idea? Is it even necessary? The base would be an airfield of, say, value 0(1).

Andrew

I assume the primary reason for adding it - is to add delay to the Japanese going from Khota Baru to Singapore during the initial invasion. This would give a bit more time to pull back the troops from Alor Star. So it has a purpose. But it is a compromise of what I understand of the CHS concept - to be as accurate as we can be - personnally I'd do a lot of other things before I'd do this - but I don't "oppose it" per se .. if you add it ... maybe give it a level 3 fort so it has some speed bump capability. And be aware, adding it may cause as many problems as it solves as the AI may pull supply out of Singapore to send to this base.

[Lemurs!]

My Japanese sources show the 4th Division back in Japan in November.
This is 'Japanese Army history 31-45'.

Ah Ha! The 4th Yasen Hojutai was sent back to Japan to receive replacements from the 4th Depot Division. The majority of the division did stay in Shanghai.

Frank Dorn's Sino-Japanese war is helpfull.

I still am leaving 21st division in Indo China and 2nd division in Kanazawa as i have 4 different sources placing the division there on Dec 8th.

Mike

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

My Japanese sources show the 4th Division back in Japan in November.
This is 'Japanese Army history 31-45'.

Ah Ha! The 4th Yasen Hojutai was sent back to Japan to receive replacements from the 4th Depot Division. The majority of the division did stay in Shanghai.

So sounds like we're unanimous on 4th Division to Shanghai ... good ... and I don't see that as a "take a way" for the Japanese player in game terms ... though probably not a huge benefit either.

Frank Dorn's Sino-Japanese war is helpfull.

Agree ! I really got involved to work on Chinese OB ... but if Japanese OB in China has issues either way ( something there that shouldn't be or something not there that should be ) they must be addressed. I also have Several Chinese sources .. one being HISTORY OF THE SINO-JAPANESE WAR, Hsu L. and Chang M. essentially the "official" Taiwanese version of what happened .. kinds reads like a smaller version of the Great Patriotic War ... and many statements must be taken with appropriate barrels of salt .. however, for tracing locations and activities of units ... it is still useful.

I still am leaving 21st division in Indo China and 2nd division in Kanazawa as i have 4 different sources placing the division there on Dec 8th.
Mike

I must have missed wanting to move 2nd Div ... where was someone wanting to move it ?

As to 21st ... I'll always vote to put units especially divisions where we know they were ... but we do need some more time to figure out what exactly was in the Hanoi/Haiphong area ... I don't support putting 21st there ... when we know it was in North China ... just to plug the hole ( yes - you've said you do - I just putting in my 2 cents ). But I'd like some more time to look at the whole China OB on both sides ... there will be other changes .. because what I've seen so far on the CHinese side is going to wind up with more changing than not changing.


Joe

[Lemurs!]

Pry has a source that says 2nd was at Naha while every source i have says it arrived November 13th 41 in Kanazawa.

I have seen to many AARs with Chinese troops overunning Northern Indo China. We pull out the 21st division and there is nothing there.

I am contemplating adding some of the Yobi Eki regiments in Indo china as I deleted 2 fictional Mixed brigades that Matrix had in Indo China. This pretty much strips the area of troops though.

Okay, a bit more of a search. There were 7 Yobi Eki battalions in Indo China that had combat experience from 39-40 in China and 3 divisions worth of Kobi Eki (mobilization reserve) in Indo China.
2 divisions were in the north while 1 was based on Saigon.

Now, the divisions are already represented by the Vietnam militia rule but we could bring in the 2 regiments of Yobi Eki troops, 1 in Hanoi and 1 in Haiphong. About 50 exp since these are the same grade of troops in the Mixed brigades.
What are your thoughts? Then we could move 21st division to Shanghai or Tsingtao.

Mike