US super equiped troops

Drake666 · Post by **Drake666** » Wed Jun 21, 2000 2:27 am

From what I have read and seen, German troops had more fire power overall then that of their US counterparts. But in this game the US troops are super equiped with bazookas and other weapons. I would like to see this changed becouse as it is now the US infantry platoon is a lot better the the German one.

This is some info I could get on US troops

US Infantry Regiment In 1944:
6 105mm Howitzers, 9 57mm anti-tank guns, 55 .50 caliber machine guns, many .30 caliber machine guns and enough Jeeps & ammunition to opperate

US Infantry Company In 1944:
193 men, 15 BARs, 2 M1919A4s, 1 .50 caliber machine gun and 6 submachine guns

US Infantry Platoon In 1944:
41 men, 1 M2 carbine, 3 BARs

US Airborne Infantry Company:
176 men, 9 machine guns, 9 BARs, 3 60mm mortars and 3 bazookas

US Airborne Infantry Platoon:
36 men, 2 M1919A6s, 22 rifles, 14 M2 carbines, 1 60mm mortar, 1 sniper rifle and 1 bazooka

As you can see only airborne platoons had bozooka as the normal part of their setup in 1944.

Dean Robb · Post by **Dean Robb** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 8:38 am

Originally posted by Drake666:
As you can see only airborne platoons had bozooka as the normal part of their setup in 1944.

Except for the well-known propensity for American servicemen to get their hands on all kinds of goodies

.

I'm not sure where your OOB came from, but I do know that the 34th ID in Italy in '44 has lessons learned on the effectiveness of the bazooka in street fighting. One presumes they has some with which to learn those lessons, and they weren't Airborne.

The Airborne guys were certainly issued bazookas because they didn't jump (obviously) with the AT guns that leg units had attached. Most of the infantry outfits got their hands on the 'zookas even if it wasn't on their "official" TO&E.

However, I do think they're a bit over-supplied in SP:WAW. One per platoon wouldn't be unreasonable; one per squad is overkill. Those are big suckers, and the rounds are heavy - you'd devote an awful lot of the squads humping capacity to a bazooka.

[This message has been edited by Dean Robb (edited 06-22-2000).]

Drake666 · Post by **Drake666** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 9:05 am

However, I do think they're a bit over-supplied in SP:WAW. One per platoon wouldn't be unreasonable; one per squad is overkill. Those are big suckers, and the rounds are heavy - you'd devote an awful lot of the squads humping capacity to a bazooka.

Yup, thats the point I was trying to get across. Like the German sqds carried light AT weapons next to the US ones for close combat against tanks and the US carried heavyer ATs and they would number I would say about one per platoon.

Fishu · Post by **Fishu** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 2:14 pm

Americans also has only movable AT-guns :I

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 3:15 pm

From what I've read, any advantage the Germans had in firepower compared with the US Army had to do with the greater number of MG42s in their rifle squads compared to the number of automatic weapons in US Army rifle squads. In addition, the Germans almost always put their best soldier(s) in charge of the squad MG42(s).

But I think this discussion ultimately becomes one of apples and oranges. The best equipped US Army squads had more firepower than the worst equipped German squads, and vice versa. In addition, troop quality is probably more important than raw firepower. Heavily armed Volksgrenadiers with little combat experience were badly mauled during the Battle of the Bulge, for instance.

As far as I can tell, the SPWAW staff has done a good job of equipping "typical" squads of the largest combatant nations (UK, USA, USSR, Italy, Japan, Germany).

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 3:19 pm

Originally posted by Fishu:
Americans also has only movable AT-guns :I

Don't worry..they will be immobilised. At least they should be immobilised.

Voriax

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 4:42 pm

Originally posted by Voriax:
Don't worry..they will be immobilised. At least they should be immobilised.
Voriax

Hmmm, I don't know the specific gun and MPs that this refers to but I think that this is generally OK. Most guns can be manhandled short distances. I don't know about the big 88's & above but a crew can still move a 105mm HOW about. Giving these kind of guns 1 MP at least allows them to be placed in buildings then removed during the game. In SP1, a unit loaded while adjecent to its transport. Now that this has changed, there is no way to get a gun into or out of a building unless it has MPs. Putting an AT gun into a building and sticking the barrel out of a window/door seems realistic enough.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 6:08 pm

Larry, this non-mobility of AT-guns in general I refer comes from Mike Wood. He said that giving AT-guns or infantry guns any mobility will confuse the AI and produce code problems. I haven't checked what US guns move but according to Mike they should not move...probably just a bug/leftover from converting oob's to SPWAW format. I have seen no mention that this has changed so I'll expect there will be no moving AT-guns when the oob patch comes out.

Voriax

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 6:21 pm

Originally posted by Voriax:

Larry, this non-mobility of AT-guns in general I refer comes from Mike Wood. He said that giving AT-guns or infantry guns any mobility will confuse the AI and produce code problems....
Voriax

What the AI isn't perfect and won't try to banzi charge AT guns?

Oh well, Matrix and the game have given us so much already I guess that I can live with this. However, perhaps I can request that it be put on the wish list. Perhaps a seperate AI rule can be generated for the AI & guns. The AI could check if a unit it was to move is a gun, if so, it doesn't move it or only moves it in retreat. Just one more if then or case statement?

In the mean time, I'll just edit my OOB to give my human led units this capability.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Elvis · Post by **Elvis** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 6:38 pm

I have to agree with Larry on this one. Assign artillery up to a certain size (~75mm?) a MP value of 1.

As a former gun bunny, I know for a fact that a modern M119 105mm howitzer weighing 1389 lbs. can be manhandled to an extent by its crew. A WW2-era 75mm M8 pack howitzer weighed 1339 lbs, and I'll bet (although I haven't done any digging yet) that the majority of 75mm-class pieces weighed in around 2000 lbs - a weight that a 6-8 man gun crew can manage on a limited basis.

As far as the cut off, that is up to debate...

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alea iacta est
sooperduk@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Elvis (edited 06-22-2000).]

johnfmonahan · Post by **johnfmonahan** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 6:52 pm

I have moved an american 105 howitzer many times. Being a big guy, I was always the one that had to belly over the end of the barrel to move the center of balence. The inability to move guns, especially anti-tank guns has been a feature the sorely limits antitank ambushed, urban ones in particular. It is a feature that I think would greatly enhance the game, as it would allow engagements from secondary( same field of fire) and alternate ( different field of fire) positions. The inability to change positions has always been a brawback to really great defensive battles.

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When in doubt, go on line.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 10:18 pm

Personal opinion, since that is what is being offered. Any gun up to and including a 105, if it has a full crew and is unsuppressed, should be able to move one hex.

Any small weapons 37mm or less should be able to be moved 2 hexes, same condition.

Again, personal thoughts from what I have read of what has often been done in combat.

Now whether I get my wish or not, I will let you know. In fact, since I have version 2.0, I'll go look now. Hold on (don't you hate when I do that?)
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Yes, US 37mm can be moved, so can 75mm. 105..no

Other countries...no. BUT unless the weapon is coded as unmoveable you can change those numbers in the editor. Hold on..
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-Yes, you can do that...WB

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Spunkgibbon · Post by **Spunkgibbon** » Thu Jun 22, 2000 10:43 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
In fact, since I have version 2.0, I'll go look now. Hold on (don't you hate when I do that?)

Yeah.

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Fri Jun 23, 2000 12:00 am

Mortars have movement points, and that apparently doesn't screw up the AI. Am I missing something here?

Byron Inglesh

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Fri Jun 23, 2000 1:20 am

Originally posted by Bing:
Mortars have movement points, and that apparently doesn't screw up the AI. Am I missing something here?

Mortars can fire indirect, AT-guns cannot. Maybe that's why the AI doesn't feel like charging with mortars?

Just my guess.

Voriax

O de B · Post by **O de B** » Fri Jun 23, 2000 1:13 pm

I tried to add move points to AT guns in the original SP. One problem that comes with it is that the crews won't abandon their guns anymore when fired at by MG/small arms og getting suppressed. Instead, they will rout carrying the gun... at MP 1 you don"t run very well, and they 'll be slain quicky

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Fri Jun 23, 2000 1:44 pm

Ya I remember that bug now that you mention it.

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Good hunting,
Pack Rat

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sat Jun 24, 2000 12:15 am

The reason we left most guns immobile (other than the fact the AI would think they were slow assault guns and keep moving them every chance it got...) is not because the piece could not be moved, but because of problems moving both the gun AND the ammo. Yes it could be done, but typically not very easily, requiring the gun to be moved to where it was going, then going back and getting the ammo...several times...

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sat Jun 24, 2000 12:28 am

I also editied bazooka type weapons...let me know if I went too far the other way:-)

A couple things - I have conflicting data on the P'shreck's warhead, anyboy have a source and pen number?

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Sat Jun 24, 2000 3:07 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bing:
Mortars have movement points, and that apparently doesn't screw up the AI. Am I missing something here?

Byron Inglesh

Yes, and Andy Gaileys WW2 kobs also had movable at guns, no problem for the AI, I saw them retreat quite often..heheheh