Yes, PH attack is borked. Some test data...

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if v1.5 were no more playable than v1.4, and for all I know more errors yet have been installed. If you read these threads as they mature that would seem to be the case as of now, and we're only a few days into v1.5's release. It could get very well become worse!

It amazes me that someone who spends so much time, energy and considerable verbosity to critisize the game considers it unplayable. It would seem that your choises in the matter are very clear. If you consider this game to be so unplayable then please deprive us of the pleasure of hearing you complain.

There are, as far as I can tell, several types of people on this board. There are those who love the game and refuse to take any bug seriously. There are those who love the game but are willing to offer constructive criticism. Then there are those who seem to be somewhat dissapointed and offer a lot of constructive criticism.

And then there is you. In all the time I have been reading your posts, I do not recall a single instance when your comments were constructive or helpful. You do, however, spend a lot of time being insulting, degrading, dismissive and generally unpleasant. You you're just mad at the world and need to take your frustrations out, it is another reason for you to deprive us of your comments.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Banquet

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Please, if you're offended by this kind of stuff, that's fine, but at least try to maintain something like a reasonable perspective about what's going on here with regard to the big picture. WitP wasn't released with just a "few glitches" you know. It was released in awful shape. And at a premium price to boot.

I'm not at all offended, but I likely would be if I was a beta.. having been accused of never catching a bug.. ever..

I'd say it was the original poster of this comment that was unable to maintain a reasonable perspective, along with anyone who tries to justify his position.

You're still not looking at the big picture.

Have the testors ever caught a bug? No doubt. Then the original poster must have exaggerated, no? But what shape is the game in? Good shape or bad shape? And what was original poster's overall intent? I don't know, but if it was to suggest that the game still needs a lot of work he couldn't have been far off his mark.

I can't speak for him, of course, but that's the big picture. The game needs lots of work, and frankly, I doubt it will receive the attention it needs. In fact, if you read what Matrix has written about this that's about guaranteed.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

If I can quote him correctly, Frag said that the torp-arming rule was an abstaction to allow for the fact that some targets in harbors were moored in too shallow waters (or were moored alongside another ship).

Tritianjohn...I don't think civility need be eschewed (edit: I'm not saying you weren't being civil) just because we are on the web. As for the price of the game..a mere trifle...I sometimes spend that much on a bottle of wine and then cant remember it in the morning [;)]

I find that true, too. The more I spend the less I remember the next day. [8D]

[freeboy]

Borking seems to be the one thing that WITP support is good at. Unfortunately, the only thing.

I knew there was going to be trouble when the last 1.5 build was sent to the beta-testers, and then released to public less than 24 hours later. Not that the beta-testers have ever caught anything before..........ever.

Really 24 hours .. you certainly are the onme IN THE KNOW... I am sure no really cares, the testers, Mike Wood, MAtrix staff .. Gary Grigsby.. and all .. its a damdable conspiricy designed around you.. we dopn't really even play the game.. we only post to see if you'll respond.. this one goes out to YOU..

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if v1.5 were no more playable than v1.4, and for all I know more errors yet have been installed. If you read these threads as they mature that would seem to be the case as of now, and we're only a few days into v1.5's release. It could get very well become worse!

It amazes me that someone who spends so much time, energy and considerable verbosity to critisize the game considers it unplayable. It would seem that your choises in the matter are very clear. If you consider this game to be so unplayable then please deprive us of the pleasure of hearing you complain.

Now you see, this is what the other fellow was referring to. What you just wrote is 1) not only rude but 2) ignorant of my belief and perspective on top of that, 3) puts words in my mouth, 4) is arrogant because it (wrongly) presumes everyone reading this thread agrees with your demonstrably limited point of view and 5) just for good measure, stands in diametric opposition to the ideal of "free speech."

Where I come from they call that a mouthful. Good show, guy. [:D]

There are, as far as I can tell, several types of people on this board. There are those who love the game and refuse to take any bug seriously. There are those who love the game but are willing to offer constructive criticism. Then there are those who seem to be somewhat dissapointed and offer a lot of constructive criticism.

And then there is you. In all the time I have been reading your posts, I do not recall a single instance when your comments were constructive or helpful. You do, however, spend a lot of time being insulting, degrading, dismissive and generally unpleasant. You you're just mad at the world and need to take your frustrations out, it is another reason for you to deprive us of your comments.

You, sir, appear to be a man given to statements which are what I'd call more "convenient" than accurate. But go ahead, make an ass of yourself. It won't affect me or the work I do around here one whit. [:)]

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Aye, I can. Unfortunately, scen 16 neither allows me to deploy my forces the way I want nor does it grant the VP to the IJN player from sinking the two BB's, an important consideration since each BB is around 190 VP.

Yes, you DO get VP for the BB sunk. They are rolled into the VP value for Tokyo, iirc - you get 500 pts more in scen 16 than 15. Someone pointed out that if they lost Tokyo, they lost the points, but then realized that they would have lost the game anyway.

Hmm...I see now that you do get VP for the sunk ships. I missed that. Sorry.

[Oznoyng]

To those not debating the merits of the PH attack, can you please take it to PM's? This is my soap box, and I'd prefer to whine about the underpowered IJN PH attack. :p

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: Banquet

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn




Maybe so, but that's more a matter of perception. Truth is the game gives clear indication of having been given short shrift in terms of design, this accompanied by what appears to a willy-nilly development approach. There is, after all, more than a little to fix.

What's perception got to do with it? To say that beta's have never 'caught anything' isn't only rude, it's insulting and totally incorrect.

In a game of such scope there's always going to be things that need fixing. Matrix/2by3's first job is to stay afloat. In doing so they may have released WitP with some flaws.. but they still gave us a simulation of the theatre that's unparelled.

Suggesting improvements is one thing. Throwing stupid insults at beta's shouldn't be dignified.

I've been around for awhile and I've read plenty of "insults" on this board, and going both ways, too. Why get upset about that?

Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if v1.5 were no more playable than v1.4, and for all I know more errors yet have been installed. If you read these threads as they mature that would seem to be the case as of now, and we're only a few days into v1.5's release. It could get very well become worse!

Have you forgotten that Allied Sub Doctrine was a "feature" installed by this same support staff based on what I'd consider to be idiotic requests from this very board?

Please, if you're offended by this kind of stuff, that's fine, but at least try to maintain something like a reasonable perspective about what's going on here with regard to the big picture. WitP wasn't released with just a "few glitches" you know. It was released in awful shape. And at a premium price to boot.

TJ:
I do try to keep a reasonable perspective. I think it is rude. [:(]

As to the rest:
1. WITP was released after I waited for it for over 10 years; I'm glad I didn't have to wait longer
2. lf another publisher (which shall remain nameless but should be recognizable) had released it, it would have cost 20% less, would have had twice as many glitches, and we would have been charged full price for 1.5 under the title WITP II, except WITP II would also have been full of glitches until the second patch was released.

And going back to the original post, do you really believe that 1.5 was released only 24 hours after the Beta people got it?[8|]

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

To those not debating the merits of the PH attack, can you please take it to PM's? This is my soap box, and I'd prefer to whine about the underpowered IJN PH attack. :p

Sorry, you are right (as usual).[:D]

[rtrapasso]

To those not debating the merits of the PH attack, can you please take it to PM's? This is my soap box, and I'd prefer to whine about the underpowered IJN PH attack. :p

[:D]

[madmickey]

Unhistorical would be the Japs knowing that american torpedo are no good? This should allow the KB to stay around Pearl harbour longer than would have been historically. You can sink more than old BB thanks to that fact.

[Stavka_lite]

You never see (hopefully) the bugs the Betas catch[X(]

[hithere]

i've always felt that the PH results were basically irrelevant anyway. i have had a couple of games where i got off light, what did it get me?? some sunk BB's later. they are too slow to bombard and get hammered 2 days before they could even see their target. they do come in handy in the GC/PM fight, but by then you would have had a few repaired even with historical like damage. i do keep a couple in Alaska so a willie nillie japanese task force can't just have a cake walk, but other than victory points they are useless

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: Banquet



What's perception got to do with it? To say that beta's have never 'caught anything' isn't only rude, it's insulting and totally incorrect.

In a game of such scope there's always going to be things that need fixing. Matrix/2by3's first job is to stay afloat. In doing so they may have released WitP with some flaws.. but they still gave us a simulation of the theatre that's unparelled.

Suggesting improvements is one thing. Throwing stupid insults at beta's shouldn't be dignified.

I've been around for awhile and I've read plenty of "insults" on this board, and going both ways, too. Why get upset about that?

Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if v1.5 were no more playable than v1.4, and for all I know more errors yet have been installed. If you read these threads as they mature that would seem to be the case as of now, and we're only a few days into v1.5's release. It could get very well become worse!

Have you forgotten that Allied Sub Doctrine was a "feature" installed by this same support staff based on what I'd consider to be idiotic requests from this very board?

Please, if you're offended by this kind of stuff, that's fine, but at least try to maintain something like a reasonable perspective about what's going on here with regard to the big picture. WitP wasn't released with just a "few glitches" you know. It was released in awful shape. And at a premium price to boot.

TJ:
I do try to keep a reasonable perspective. I think it is rude. [:(]

Well, you're old enough to keep a reasonable perspective. If fact you might be old enough that that's all you can keep anymore. [:)]

As to the rest:
1. WITP was released after I waited for it for over 10 years; I'm glad I didn't have to wait longer
2. lf another publisher (which shall remain nameless but should be recognizable) had released it, it would have cost 20% less, would have had twice as many glitches, and we would have been charged full price for 1.5 under the title WITP II, except WITP II would also have been full of glitches until the second patch was released.

And going back to the original post, do you really believe that 1.5 was released only 24 hours after the Beta people got it?[8|]

I don't care to defend what was written. I didn't write it.

Was it rude? Maybe so, but no more rude than a load of stuff written here, and like I pointed out, by both "sides." Frankly, I get tired all over every time I see someone attempt to mount some morale highground they imagine could exist solely on their desire to "defend" Matrix and squash criticism.

Was what this guy wrote accurate? Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, do you really think these fixes are thoroughly tested? Not that they could be in any good way, except by us out here, but that's something else.

Again, I think in the larger sense this fellow had a point to make that's not entirely mistaken. That he didn't go about it in an urbane manner is, considering this forum as a whole, unremarkable.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate
Borking seems to be the one thing that WITP support is good at. Unfortunately, the only thing…

Nonsense.

[BlackVoid]

Even without this "bork", the PH attack by Japan is a waste of resources. Not even a few dozen BBs are enough to interfere in the SRA. BBs are useless.

Attacking PH is a strategic mistake, because the US CVs are not there. You know they are not there. Why attack the old BBs?

If as Japan you start with the PH attack in WITP, you already made your first BIG strategic mistake. Really the only reason to attack is to get the points for them, though you can get the same number of points by employing the KB in the SRA and sinking all the fleeing ships.

If you want a historic start, play scenario 16, if you want to play what-if, play scenario 15. But in the latter case attacking PH is very very very stupid.

[pad152]

Well pre 1.5 I use to see more ships damaged and sunk in the Pearl Harbor attack. Now we see only 1 or 2 ships sunk max and fewer ships damaged. In 1.4 even when no ships were sunk you would see 2 more pages of damaged ships.

The effects of air attacks has been reduced this is all well and good but the reduced Pearl Harbor attack is now moot (non - historical). What's the point, it's now better to go after the allied carriers than to waste the time to attack Pearl Harbor or maybe attack the aircraft factories in Seattle.

[BlackVoid]

ORIGINAL: pad152

What's the point, it's now better to go after the allied carriers than to waste the time to attack Pearl Harbor

Even pre 1.5 this was the case.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Well pre 1.5 I use to see more ships damaged and sunk in the Pearl Harbor attack. Now we see only 1 or 2 ships sunk max and fewer ships damaged. In 1.4 even when no ships were sunk you would see 2 more pages of damaged ships.

I haven't had the chance to do the PH attack since 1.5 came out, but there's one thing to keep in mind. Historically, the attack on Pearl Harbor happened once. We don't know if the results were high end, low end or average. Assuming it's average, then what you say may be an issue.

On another issue...

I look at this game differently. I find WitP to be a successful simulation if it can reproduce history successfully. That doesn't mean that it should always be reproduced in the same way. On average, if you do things in a historical manner, your outcome will be historical. If you want the outcome to be the same as history, why bother? Just read a book. I want to be able to do things differently than was done historically. Granted, we have hindsight, but both sides have hindsight. There's no way to prevent that with a historical simulation. Should the Japanese player be forced into the PH attack? Personally, I'd say no. If you're playing the game your way, do what you want. You may find an Allied player who insists on the PH attack. If you don't like that, I'm sure you can find an Allied player that will agree to your terms.

Personally, I am greatly appreciative of all the work Matrix is doing on this game. I've had the old boardgame of the same name and have never had the opportunity to play it. I've waited for years for this game and will play it the rest of my life. Is it perfect? I suspect that everyone can complain about some facet of it. What do I think? I think that right now it's about as perfect as it can be. Can it get better? I suspect it can (although you will never hear me publically complain about it). The work and love that has gone into it is amazing. I (and I suspect many of you) will never have the talent to be able to create this wonderful game. I owe a lot to the people who have created this.

Mike Solli

[LittleJoe]

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

Even without this "bork", the PH attack by Japan is a waste of resources. Not even a few dozen BBs are enough to interfere in the SRA. BBs are useless.

Attacking PH is a strategic mistake, because the US CVs are not there. You know they are not there. Why attack the old BBs?

If as Japan you start with the PH attack in WITP, you already made your first BIG strategic mistake. Really the only reason to attack is to get the points for them, though you can get the same number of points by employing the KB in the SRA and sinking all the fleeing ships.

If you want a historic start, play scenario 16, if you want to play what-if, play scenario 15. But in the latter case attacking PH is very very very stupid.

Thinking about this i do agree with you, most PBEM's only allow one port attack, why not use the Japanese taskforce boost to take the KB south of PH to the Canton island/line island area. To possibly catch one, or two of his carriers fleeing to the south pacific, and then rampage across the south pacific sinking his Crusiers which are a lot more of a threat to you than his slow BB's.

Then use your one Port attack on Manilla, and hit it with the Mini KB, and betties from Formosa. sinking those dangerous subs.

You might not get as many points, but hey you stand a low chance of winning by points as Japan, wouldnt it be better to stall the chances of an Allied counterattack for a few months by sinking his carriers, crusiers and subs.