jap pilot pool

[CapAndGown]

Why are only 10 pilots trained for the IJN navy per month at start of scenario 15?

I know that Japan's training program in 42 was training many more pilots than this and that their quality did not start to degrade until 43.

Is this:
a) because the initial experience level is so high: i.e. 70
b) because the designers want the players to run their own training program
c) both a and b
d) neither a nor b

Jeez. Looks like a question on the final exam I am working on. [8|]

[wild_Willie2]

D...........

[doktorblood]

I agree ... D. Cuz the dartboard says 10.

[Grotius]

I agree that it's too low, Cap. In our PBEM game, I ran through the pool in three weeks.

For what it's worth, one of pry's new scenarios adjusts the IJN pilot replacement rate up to 25 a month or so.

[Brady]

Do a search on this topic, and you will likely find one of my epic rants on the subject, from long ago....

Check these oldies but gooddies out:

tm.asp?m=704090&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2CPiolet

tm.asp?m=702268&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2CPiolet

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: Brady

Do a search on this topic, and you will likely find one of my epic rants on the subject, from long ago....

Check these oldies but gooddies out:

tm.asp?m=704090&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2CPiolet

tm.asp?m=702268&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2CPiolet

Thanks for the pointer. After reading another one of Nik's novels (TM) I have come to the conclusion that the answer is (a) and that perhaps the initial pilot pool of 100 is a little lite. But that may change with the 1.5 patch.

[Onime No Kyo]

Pry has put out a scenario of his own where he raises the monthly gains to 35 IIRC. As I dont play the Japanese, I tend to stay back from this issue. But I am very curious to hear what the playtesting of that scenario produces.

[Grotius]

I've started playing it. I think it's only 25 IJN replacements. That and the greater control over pilots may make things more manageable.

Actually, there are six such scenarios -- three for the stock map, three for Andrew Brown's. I actually really like the one I'm trying (#32) so far. It splits ALL airgroups into chutai/squadrons, which suits my playstyle -- I'm always dividing airgroups to rest some, use others, etc. Pry has also cut the cargo capacity of virtually all transports in the game in an effort to slow down the flow of supply and troops. I have found and reported a couple glitches, but in general it looks promising.

[pompack]

Those threads don't even begin to capture the number of times we have discussed this.

To summarize about 2600 posts:

1. In WITP Japan trains up to 3000 pilots per month to bassic level (actually more, but that is the most that anyone ever claimed to have drawn in one month) which is far to high

2. It is up to the player to provide advanced flight training or to commit the basic pilots to the fight, as the player pleases. This training will require a substantial amount of supply (avgas) and an non-negligible number of destroyed a/c (ops losses in training) as well as a lot of time. Posting the pilots without advanced training directly to combat units will result in
a. Aircraft in the air now
b. higher combat losses
c. faster training (for the survivors)
The player decides what works best for the current situation (which certainly changes a lot betwen 41 and 45)

3. For some strange reason know only to the Beta team (and they are not talking) it was decided to provide 10 pilots a month with advanced flight training for free. This has confused everybody that first looks at this.

To get all the gory details and arguments, see the referenced threads.

[Brady]

In a nut shell, WiTP handels the whole Japanese piolet thing, badely, Mogami came up with a very cleaver way to inshure that Players are able to have trained men to man their planes, this is a work around at best, and it removes a signafagant portion of Japanes front line forces to make it hapen. It has grown to be excepted as a designe intent, which is bs imo, though cleaver and well thought out by him

Historicaly Japan was producing a lot more piolets for the Army and Navy than is commonly thought, and the quality of the men was High all the way up to around 44, during 44 it droped in Quality, but the degree with which this is represented in WiTP is excessive imo, particulary in 43. This is one of those Mith vs reality things, the myth is what we have in WiTP the reality is to shocking and contrivosural for many to even begine to embrace, it's like mixing Biorth Controle and Cathasolsim.

If WiTP was suposed to model Piolet training than they should of added training planes, factorys to build them, and extra points of suply to sustain them, and given us the abaility to use them late war as kamakisies.

[Feinder]

While I do think that 10 pilots per month may be a little sparse for Japan, the truth is that, Japan did -not- have many trained aviators. As I have noted before (easily substantiated if you would me to post links for reference), KB was already short of pilots by the battle of Midway. The reason they only had 20 - 30 Zeros aboard the carriers, was not due to doctrinal constraints (altho IJN did favor lots of bombers), but because they were in fact, already lacking in carrier-trained pilots. Same for the Aleutions TFs. Junyo and Ryujo had several extra planes parked in the hanger (6 as I recall), because there simply wasn't anybody capable of flying them.

-F-

[airtrooper]

What I dont understand is why they did not use the same method that was used in the board game version of this game... namely you are given x amount of pilots each month. these pilots are than placed in your pool with the day they are placed their kept track of. The longer you wait to use them the better trained they are when placed into your active squadrons

Worked really well in that you had plenty of trained pilots up till the time you start getting heavy losses and have to replace combat losses more often which meant dipping into pilots that had less training. untill near the end of the game you are putting pilots you just got into airplanes to become kamakazies.... while the allies where getting large amounts of pilots at the start that they did not really need so they had all the pilots they needed but needed time to train them....

I just finnished my first month of game turns playing this game and by the time my kb task force got home i had 30 trained navy pilots left in my pool with 200 needed to replace the losses of kb... already I find my carrier force filled with useless pilots and its only 1/1/42. about 90 percent of my losses in kb was to AA which I cant avoid unless i dont attack. at this rate I will be running from those 3 american carriers casue they will be shooting down my planes by the bucket loads in the next fight i have with them.

[doktorblood]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

While I do think that 10 pilots per month may be a little sparse for Japan, the truth is that, Japan did -not- have many trained aviators. As I have noted before (easily substantiated if you would me to post links for reference), KB was already short of pilots by the battle of Midway. The reason they only had 20 - 30 Zeros aboard the carriers, was not due to doctrinal constraints (altho IJN did favor lots of bombers), but because they were in fact, already lacking in carrier-trained pilots. Same for the Aleutions TFs. Junyo and Ryujo had several extra planes parked in the hanger (6 as I recall), because there simply wasn't anybody capable of flying them.

-F-

A problem with pulling carrier and non carrier air-crew from the same pool. The Japanese had an acute shortage of carrier trained pilots through-out 1942 as did the equally short handed U.S.N. The game should have had seperate pools for carrier and non-carrier air-crew.

After Midway the Japs had extra carrier pilots because they now had an acute shortage of carriers, so they sent them to fight in non-carrier units.

Make the IJN rate too big and Japan will have the capability to have more carrier pilots available than they should... too small and the land-based IJNAF suffers a severe decline in quality a year too soon.

I have no idea why the JAAF rate is so small.

[Brady]

Initialy, early 42, to mid 42 the number of trained Naval avaitors entering service was not all that high, it was basicaly on a par with pre war levals, howeaver this was drasticaly ramped up, see posts on linked (above) threads by me on this subject.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: airtrooper

I. already I find my carrier force filled with useless pilots and its only 1/1/42. about 90 percent of my losses in kb was to

You can avoid this with disbanding land based (experienced) Zero units into a carrier daitai's.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: airtrooper

I. already I find my carrier force filled with useless pilots and its only 1/1/42. about 90 percent of my losses in kb was to

You can avoid this with disbanding land based (experienced) Zero units into a carrier daitai's.

And then when the disbanded units return place them in training and (a little later) combat in a non-demanding environment. Then repeat.

[Mr.Frag]

This is what you get for being nice ... A long time ago, under protest, 2by3 *let8 Japan has some bonus pilots. They should in reality get NONE. Now because there as some, people complain that there are not enough.

Should have just stuck with zero pilots and be done with it. [8|]

[Onime No Kyo]

I really don't understand the issue here. Maybe its because I never played Japan. What are the numbers on replacement Japanese pilots? In my many games as the allies, the pelacements I get are usually in the 45-48 range. This means that they die pretty quick. If Japan gets pilots in the 30-35 range, they have plenty of Home Defence squardons to train them in. Of course, I also completely fail to understand Mog's training thing.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

I really don't understand the issue here. Maybe its because I never played Japan. What are the numbers on replacement Japanese pilots? In my many games as the allies, the pelacements I get are usually in the 45-48 range. This means that they die pretty quick. If Japan gets pilots in the 30-35 range, they have plenty of Home Defence squardons to train them in. Of course, I also completely fail to understand Mog's training thing.

in a nutshell, you just described Mog's training thing. If you are talking land based, just xfer the newly trained units to the front. If you need replacements for the carriers, just disband the newly trained unit into the dedicated carrier unit.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

This is what you get for being nice ... A long time ago, under protest, 2by3 *let8 Japan has some bonus pilots. They should in reality get NONE. Now because there as some, people complain that there are not enough.

Should have just stuck with zero pilots and be done with it. [8|]

this is because we are supposed to train our own pilots right???

because all the pilots come with the airgroups.

so the allies should have gotten zero as well correct???