Cadres

[Hornblower]

Presidents order or not, it was Bugged out... Sure you stay but, i'm taking my kids nannny to freedom

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

But - is this moot? Earlier it was proclaimed that there would be no more programming changes after 1.5. Now Frag is saying that apparently there will be. So, either 1) 3x5 and Matrix have changed their mind; or 2) Frag is pulling our legs; or 3) maybe the rumored release of the code is real. So, what gives?[&:]

Version 1.6: Frag's Revenge!

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

Presidents order or not, it was Bugged out... Sure you stay but, i'm taking my kids nannny to freedom

Well, it was the smart move.

I'm not interested in arguing the wisdom of having PPs to work with. They're already in the game and we're not going to get rid of them. The question is how they ought to be used, isn't it? And for most of the units in question it's a case of saving some as opposed to saving nothing. What's better to you? Something or nothing?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: madmickey

If sufficient men/equipment are in the pool I would like to see new units formed. The removing the cadre is one way of allowing use of excess replacement pool. I also have a hard time believing that for evacuation purposes PP are needed. I would like a system that if a units is evacuated there is no PP charged but all the unit is deemed ineffective for a period of time (2 months).

That might or might not make more sense. I hadn't thought of it before now. But what about air support squads? Wouldn't these likely be put directly to use? Would you have a bunch of otherwise capable mechanics sitting around on their bums just because their entire unit hadn't been reformed yet?

Hi,

historically the British evacuated cadres from Singapore when they realized that it would fall (both Wavell and Churchill knew it quite early, it was a political decision - thanks to Mr. Curtin - to fight there to the bitter end instead of evacuating). Evacuated were mainly RAF and RN cadres (the evacuated personnell went to Java and later to Australia and India).

Another point that makes (IMHO) evacuation a valid choice: In the game the Japanese player can invade locations like Canton or Palmyra quite early because he knows that the Allied player cannot have brought in enough forces to defend these locations (historically the Japanese did not know as much as most gamers will...). But it makes no sense to tell the Japanese player "don't invade there just because you know that there cannot be enough defenders (IMHO the Japanese player should invade where he wants if using a historical start - and I play only the Allies). By evacuating cadres the Allied player can counter this somewhat: While he will still loose the VP's and most of the troops it should keep the Japanese player somewhat honest because he will know that the Allied units will be back in strength after some time and it is of limited use for him to attack locations just to "kill off" weak Allied units. It's somewhat different with the combat units in the PI and Dutch units: Because the Allied player knows that the game will keep producing Phillipine and Dutch squads even after the fall of these areas, he will want to save some of those units just to make use of the squads that will accumulate in his force pool [interestingly the Phillipine RCT that arrives in 1944 uses US-squads). Best solution would be to give the Allied player a fixed amount of PI, PS and Dutch squads and no reinforcements. Guess that this would solve some part of this problem!

K

[DrewMatrix]

Best solution would be to give the Allied player a fixed amount of PI, PS and Dutch squads and no reinforcements.

Yes, I like that idea too. Or perhaps an extremely low number of reinforcement squads to simulate the few refugees that went into combat units.

This would pretty much eliminate useful Dutch or Filipino combat forces. But remember it would still allow those base forces to draw Air Support replacements.

[Mr.Frag]

Can we be a tad bit more honest with ourselves here ...

Evacuating troops to fight another day is perfectly acceptable. Sneaking off 1 grunt for the purposes of gaming the system into rebuilding a unit that you have no plans to evacuate is not the same.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Can we be a tad bit more honest with ourselves here ...

Evacuating troops to fight another day is perfectly acceptable. Sneaking off 1 grunt for the purposes of gaming the system into rebuilding a unit that you have no plans to evacuate is not the same.

I agree 100%.

But how to differentiate this in WitP (and thus disallow this "gamey" behavior)?

Any ideas Raymond?


Leo "Apollo11"

[Mr.Frag]

Any ideas Raymond?

The only way based on the current limitations within the scenario data is either preventing replacements (making the unit useless) or preventing subs from being used to carry anything other then INF units.

Ideally, you'd mod the scenario data and have these units simply on a very limited diet of replacement troops rendering it pointless, but as they share the same data elements with other units, you can't do this currently. Other option is to adjust the CD gun data for these units to have them start the war with a static gun meaning you can't load them at all.

-------------------------------------------------

In a perfect world, one would split the units up into parts that can be moved and parts that can not be, one would *also* have AV support country specific (ie: you need the correct type of AV troops to work that type of aircraft)

The biggest problem with game speed is how fast things can be brought into play. Aircraft are useless without AV support. Bases are useless without support. People complain about the logistics, but supply by itself doesn't keep planes flying and troops rebuilding.

Long term goal ... we'll see what is at the end of the road [;)]

[DrewMatrix]

preventing subs from being used to carry anything other then INF units

Hmm, would that work? All I need to do is take one inf squad out of the unit by sub, and when it regrows from replacements it gets all the other equipment (the things to large/heavy to take by sub). Many base forces have a few Inf squads so you could even evacuate bases that way.

Also, remember it is not just subs. I use subs for the PI (mostly) but use Air Transport for most of the DEI units.

(Not that it bothers me to do any of this. I am just pointing out that _if_ one wants to keep people from rescuing cadres and regrowing units taking a single inf squad will regrow the whole unit).

[DrewMatrix]

adjust the CD gun data

I am not sure that will work either. I can still a) load the non-CD gun unit or b) let the unit attrit to where the CD gun, even though in the TOE, is no longer with the unit, _then_ load a cadre. There is one Dutch unit that already has such CD guns (so once you drop it off in Noumea or wherever you can't move it again).

[Nikademus]

The easiest way is simply to not do it. I never evac fragments in my PBEM's though all of my opponents so far insist on being able to do it. I wouldn't have a problem with it if said fragments, as they morph back into the original parent unit, lost exp to the point that since you are replacing 99% of the orig LCU you basically get a completely wet behind the ears unit.

The next easiest solution is for the code to disallow any LCU type pickups (supply only)

[DrewMatrix]

To Mr. Frag:

What is the real problem here that you see? Is it moving combat units (Phillipine Inf and Scouts for example) or is it moving the Base Force units with their Air Support? Depending on what you are trying to prevent, you will need different approaches.

The combat units you can deal with (pretty realistically and without risking enormous unintended consequences elsewhere) by limiting Dutch and PI combat units to 1 squad per month or similar.

If it's the Base Forces that bother you, that is a bigger problem because of the commonality of Air Support. Is there room in the Database for two new units: "Dutch Air Support" and "Filipino Air Support" (the latter seems a little silly, since the mechanics at Clark Field are USAAF but you get the point). Then put only Dutch Air Support units in Dutch Base forces and have only 1 Dutch Air Support replacement per month.


Remember there is another side of the coin you are not considering (because we play the first 6 months of the war over and over). The Japanese do the same thing late in the war. Lest the Japanese "run out of pieces of cardboard" they can use subs to pull valuable cadres (mostly Air Support) out of isolated islands and bring them closer to home or to the Home Islands to regrow.

Hmm. see next post

[DrewMatrix]

Is the real problem here the rate at which the Allies create Air Support Units in the pool?

Here is a real game example. Played vs AI. I did rescue lots of Dutch and PI base forces. I have (on March 20, 1943) I have 18 Dutch Base Forces (all grown back to full size). I have a bunch of PI Base forces too but they would be harder for me to count).

Here is what I have in the pool

(Hmm, won't format)

Type------------------In Pool----------Used---------Rate
Air Support-------------8274-----------1036--------600
Engineers--------------18012------------668-------1200
Engineer Vehicles------1370-------------197--------100

Note that if you reduce Air Support by 80% (to 120 instead of 600 per month) and, using 1036 I would _stilll_ have 826 in the pool.

Did the Allies really have that many engineers sitting on their hands with no unit (piece of cardboard) free to assign them to?

Maybe the solution is to massively reduce the Allied Support and engineering replacement rates?

[fokkov]

I igree with the comment that the logistics in this game are unrealistic.
You can stuff unlimited supplies and fuel even at the most smallest bases.
(un)loading is as fast in big ports as it is in small ones.
Port are sometimes upgraded within a month by just one eng. unit.
(look also in the previos topic "japanes power")
Also regarding relocating units , why should you not be able to relocate units even within ABDA or PI
as is the case now.
In real several (dislocated)units where relocated within ABDA command after 7thdec. and after the fall
of singapore.
Futher more ABDA brewster sqoudrons where flying sorties from singapore untill it capulated.
Why do i have to spent pp on moving these to singapore?
And why should u be forced to use PP for moving units in the situation when all is lost, and as in real
Everyone was trying to get out, by what means what so ever< even small boats , planes and commercial aicraft wich are not present in the game.

The point is the game will never have the same outcome as the real story AND THATS WHY IT IS A GAME.
SO YOU CAN DO LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE DONE IT, and not just doing over like it went then.
Because where is the game element then.

The make it more diffecult to both sides is to limit the logistics in the game.
Wars are won by who have the best logistics and use them well.
You can produce as much as you want, as long as can't get the to the front there useless.
An in this game , specially in the beginning its to easy to stack supplies .
I hope that this part of the game will be made more realistic .

[Ron Saueracker]

I still don't see why cadres are such an issue. This was done historically. It was even done by submarine. The two big issues seem to be the fact that subs can move heavy equipment and the squads which reinforce the cadre arrive at the cadre's exp level, not that of the pool. Raise the load values of the equipment in the TOEs and make the LCUs reflective of the lower exp levels of the raw recruits. Frag says it was never intended to have LCUs exp lower with influx of non veteran troops but I ask again, why have an exp level for troops in the pool when it is not used?

Raise the load cost!

Fix the code so LCUs reflect the mean exp level of the suads present!

Simple[:)]

Let's not make further stupid mistakes.

If you don't want all the installations tied to units, tie them to the bases then.

[Mr.Frag]

(so once you drop it off in Noumea or wherever you can't move it again).

Not true, the reason this happens is the CD gun that the dutch start with is NOT static but it has an upgrade path to a STATIC gun available 12/7/41. As soon as you drop the unit anywhere with supply, it will insta-upgrade to the static version and no longer be moveable.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I still don't see why cadres are such an issue. This was done historically. It was even done by submarine.

You answered half of your question already.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I still don't see why cadres are such an issue. This was done historically. It was even done by submarine.

You answered half of your question already.

Ahhhhh....what? [:(] How did I do that? You guys now want to take things which were historically done "out"of the game (sub transport and cadre/unit reformation) because the game "as designed" allows BS results (moving tanks by sub, having one squad of veteran soldiers impart their combat experience 100% to new squads refilling the ranks of those squads missing) instead of correcting the "as designed" flaw which would be to make large pieces of equipment such as tanks impossible to shove down sub hatches and make LCU experience a reflection of the mean experience level of squads within its ranks/TOE.

Here we go again....[8|]

[Nikademus]

You asked why Cadres are such an issue. You answered your own question. Players can take fragments and clone them into the orig unit with exp intact. Citing the historical issue is misleading as has been explained to you in the past. Men were evacuated by subs to save lives and those men would be re-integrated into the overall military structure. They were not evacuated to preserve the LCU structure and create a duplicate unit.

Thats why i wont use the tactic. Thats why I think its a bigger deal than you do.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

You asked why Cadres are such an issue. You answered your own question. Players can take fragments and clone them into the orig unit with exp intact. Citing the historical issue is misleading as has been explained to you in the past. Men were evacuated by subs to save lives and those men would be re-integrated into the overall military structure. They were not evacuated to preserve the LCU structure and create a duplicate unit.

Thats why i wont use the tactic. Thats why I think its a bigger deal than you do.

Well put.