Historic house rules

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Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Mike Santos:

........................................................
Re-align your units to 2-6 corps (soviet armies) per Army (front) HQ, distribute your air groups to ALL army HQs not to just 4 or 5 and you won't have either problem. Use your parent Army Group HQs (senior soviet HQs) to special supply critical units in the Army Group, WITHOUT switching a unit from one AG to another, if a unit is in critical need or extra supply.

Mike and Yogi

Will this be a new house rule? (No more than 6 Kps armies under a single HQ)
Personally the idea sounds Ok but.......
Where will correctness end?
With the rule that says German Korps X must be attached to HQ Y between '41 and '43? (with the proper divs maintained within it)

Only half joking here.

Nick

PS. Using the 'bigHQ' method gives you about 10 units attached to each HQ. Hardly 'dozens'. Only frontal units are attached the the BigHQ's. Nothing in the rear.
Oh it was never done you say?
Look at soviet start in '41.
Problem? How will you enforce a house rule that is being used for historical correctness when that soviet(historical) start has SW HQ with 17 units attached? (and the one near minsk has 15)

PPS. I think i do a good job as Advocatus Diaboli.
(hehe)

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>
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Ed Cogburn
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:


Mike

Will this be a new house rule?


House rules are voluntary and both players must agree, so I see no reason to wrap his knuckles on this one.


Where will correctness end?


His point is not necessarily a house rule, he's saying many people are causing themselves more pain than the use of HQ mules alleviates. Using HQ mules means the rest of your forces are a dozen corps per HQ or something like that. This creates problems that don't exist if you do the rational thing, ie, 4 infantry corps per HQ, or 3 armor per HQ, for example.
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Muzrub
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Post by Muzrub »

My views on HQ mules:


German supply problems caused by vast distances, terrain effect mud-snow created a situation where most units were not recieving their supplies.

Recieving amunition, repleacements, food, clothing, fuel, etc etc was a logistics nightmare for an army that was not used to war on such a grand scale over such large distances in inhosptiable terrain with a populace that disliked its occupier more and more each day.
These reasons alone make it a difficult situation for logistics.

With this in mind- why would an Army commander give away much needed supplies to one particular Korps belonging to another Army group when his own divsions needed these very same supplies as well.


I think Ed makes a good point about HQ mules.
If it was ment to be apart of the game it would be done in an easier form. You would have an option to transfer supply to the Army group that really needed it.
This would be easier than changing HQ's and then changing back. Changing HQ's is manipulating the game- if a redirection of supply was ment to be it would be in the menu option once a unit or HQ is selected.
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Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



His point is not necessarily a house rule, he's saying many people are causing themselves more pain than the use of HQ mules alleviates. Using HQ mules means the rest of your forces are a dozen corps per HQ or something like that. This creates problems that don't exist if you do the rational thing, ie, 4 infantry corps per HQ, or 3 armor per HQ, for example.

Ed

OK, i'll continue in the role of advocatus diaboli.

1. I hardly think a question is a rap on the knuckles.
2 Well if using mules causes more problems than it alleviates then i will continue to use them as it is to my disadvantage and thus can hardly be argued against by my opponents.(HEHE, could'nt resist that one)
Actually, not using mules has made the game more of a challenge as german. They are not so 'unstoppable' now. Especially when managed right from 22june41.

However LOKI quite agrees as i pointed out in the second line of that post.
3 to 5 corps is the 'rational' way to do it. Consequently in the 2 german games i'm playing the frontal units are being trimmed down (per army) and air units redistributed. This should actually increase german strength regarding luftwaffe density at HQ's(4FTR's is overkill considering their strength,type and training)
So it seems i will be totally in line with all house rules, bonza.

Nick

PS. To all....Excuse my use of the F word.
'Go away' just did'nt seem forcefull enough.
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Post by varjager »

Originally posted by Muzrub:
My views on HQ mules:


German supply problems caused by vast distances, terrain effect mud-snow created a situation where most units were not recieving their supplies.

Recieving amunition, repleacements, food, clothing, fuel, etc etc was a logistics nightmare for an army that was not used to war on such a grand scale over such large distances in inhosptiable terrain with a populace that disliked its occupier more and more each day.
These reasons alone make it a difficult situation for logistics.

With this in mind- why would an Army commander give away much needed supplies to one particular Korps belonging to another Army group when his own divsions needed these very same supplies as well.


I think Ed makes a good point about HQ mules.
If it was ment to be apart of the game it would be done in an easier form. You would have an option to transfer supply to the Army group that really needed it.
This would be easier than changing HQ's and then changing back. Changing HQ's is manipulating the game- if a redirection of supply was ment to be it would be in the menu option once a unit or HQ is selected.

I second this oppinion.All the books that i have been reading about the war in the East tells us that the replacment was the big problem.I agree on the suggested house rules by Lorenzo.
They are sound and i think that they will make the game more historical.
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Post by PMCN »

Lokioftheair (Nick) writes...
Ok, have i made a mistake here? I run player directed attacks on medium game speed so i can watch the results. When planes get through to the target in interdiction sometimes there are only ground casualties and no 'xxdiv suffers minor disruption. or 'yydiv suffers heavy disruption'
I was assuming that if there are no notices of disruption then the target suffered only squad or tank losses with no reduction of readiness.

So you are saying that EVERY interdiction attack that causes casualties also causes at least a 10% reduction in readiness?

If this is the case then i can see your point.
Nick, to the best of my knowledge every interdiction attack causes 10% readiness loss. Now you realy need RickyB or Ed to say if this has been changed but that is what is in the rules. I am glad you understand my pov here that was perhaps the most frustrating thing for me.

I too use medium setting and had wondered what was up with those disruption messages. If it turns out that the game now works more like PACWAR then I withdraw the rule proposal for limiting strikes. I have no objection to planes assigned to 1 HQ supporting another, so far as I am aware it happened fairly often if the 2 HQs were engaged in a combined operation.

What I find disturbing though is the fact that the losses you see in combat are never the same as the losses reported in the post action report. I am never very sure what to believe.

On the topic of mules I find it difficult to imagine having 10 korps assigned to an HQ and not having difficulties with OPs. I find it hard with 3 Pz Korps and 3 Inf Korps and for the germans I rarely if ever have more than 6 Korp assigned to a single HQ. For the russians at the start the first thing I do is create a number of HQs near the front line and start transfering Armys to them. The point is to get the number down to around 8 or so and later that will drop more. Rear area Korps are always assigned to the various army group commands (AGN, ACG, AGS). I also tend to stage my transfers through those commands...rail from germany to AGC, wait a week or two then rail from AGC to the Army HQ wait a week or two and then rail/transfer to the Korps. So far as I understand the AGx are also supposed to transfer OPs to HQs under there command that are low in OPs plus they sometimes stick their noses in and take over (and so the operation comes out of their OP total). This is at least not as bad for the german as the Infamous "STAVKA takes a hand at command" is for russian.
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Post by czerpak »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
[QB]


Weren't these the "political commissars"? that spied on military actions to make sure all were being politically correct?

Ed,
they weren't "political commissars".
They were best soviet generals with special orders from Stalin. They could step in any way they wanted and change others generals orders. E.g. they could order one Army general to give his sources (troops, supplies, air cover etc.) to other army. And in fact they weren't in command of any partcular army or front, but they had their own staff. I think we can call them flying commanders. I can back it with 12 parts soviet encyclopedia of WW2 (it is a bit of propaganda, but also has huge and valuable info material) if you want to get details, but it will take some time for me to search. Let me know if you are interested so I dont waste my time on useless search.
Of course above has nothing to do with "no mule" rule, which I support 100%.

And about readiness loss in interdiction - I think somebody (Rick, if I remember correctly) said some time ago, that it was corrected in latest version, so readines loss depends on number of planes taking part in interdiction.
Can anybody confirm if I am right or wrong?

Maciej
BTW. I second house rules stated in this thread, but IMHO it's up to opponents which ones they want while playing
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

OK, i'll continue in the role of advocatus diaboli.


Uh-Oh. Should I duck? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">


1. I hardly think a question is a rap on the knuckles.


I have the worst problem, it seems my attempts at humor get horribly misinterpreted. Very disturbing, and certainly not helping my standing in this forum any. Ok, I withdraw the rap remark, as a very poor attempt at a joke.


2 Well if using mules causes more problems than it alleviates then i will continue to use them as it is to my disadvantage and thus can hardly be argued against by my opponents.(HEHE, could'nt resist that one)


Touche! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">


PS. To all....Excuse my use of the F word.
'Go away' just did'nt seem forcefull enough.


You aren't the one that needs to apologize.
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:

Nick, to the best of my knowledge every interdiction attack causes 10% readiness loss. Now you realy need RickyB or Ed to say if this has been changed but that is what is in the rules.


Arnaud has changed this in the new beta. Seperate attacks by 1 bomber groups should not do more damage than a single large attack with 3 or 4 bomber groups. At least that's our hope.
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by czerpak:

Ed,
they weren't "political commissars".
They were best soviet generals with special orders from Stalin. They could step in any way they wanted and change others generals orders. E.g. they could order one Army general to give his sources (troops, supplies, air cover etc.) to other army. And in fact they weren't in command of any partcular army or front, but they had their own staff. I think we can call them flying commanders. I can back it with 12 parts soviet encyclopedia of WW2 (it is a bit of propaganda, but also has huge and valuable info material) if you want to get details, but it will take some time for me to search. Let me know if you are interested so I dont waste my time on useless search.


They intervened in the normal chain of command, means they weren't a seperate, complete, Army level headquarters with the logistical function you would expect of such a headquarters, instead they were individual officers with a small personal staff that could override the Army commander's orders. Its not the same thing as having to equal chains of command to one unit.


And about readiness loss in interdiction - I think somebody (Rick, if I remember correctly) said some time ago, that it was corrected in latest version, so readines loss depends on number of planes taking part in interdiction.
Can anybody confirm if I am right or wrong?


Aranud just released a beta that he says fixes this problem.
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:


Nick, to the best of my knowledge every interdiction attack causes 10% readiness loss. Now you realy need RickyB or Ed to say if this has been changed but that is what is in the rules. I am glad you understand my pov here that was perhaps the most frustrating thing for me.

I too use medium setting and had wondered what was up with those disruption messages. If it turns out that the game now works more like PACWAR then I withdraw the rule proposal for limiting strikes. I have no objection to planes assigned to 1 HQ supporting another, so far as I am aware it happened fairly often if the 2 HQs were engaged in a combined operation.

What I find disturbing though is the fact that the losses you see in combat are never the same as the losses reported in the post action report. I am never very sure what to believe.

On the topic of mules I find it difficult to imagine having 10 korps assigned to an HQ and not having difficulties with OPs. I find it hard with 3 Pz Korps and 3 Inf Korps and for the germans I rarely if ever have more than 6 Korp assigned to a single HQ. For the russians at the start the first thing I do is create a number of HQs near the front line and start transfering Armys to them. The point is to get the number down to around 8 or so and later that will drop more. Rear area Korps are always assigned to the various army group commands (AGN, ACG, AGS). I also tend to stage my transfers through those commands...rail from germany to AGC, wait a week or two then rail from AGC to the Army HQ wait a week or two and then rail/transfer to the Korps. So far as I understand the AGx are also supposed to transfer OPs to HQs under there command that are low in OPs plus they sometimes stick their noses in and take over (and so the operation comes out of their OP total). This is at least not as bad for the german as the Infamous "STAVKA takes a hand at command" is for russian.

Paul

I thought the mater was blown out of proportion
because a lot of times 3 interdiction attacks of one bomber group each would result in say, 250 men +no disruption, 400 men +light disruption to 1 divs and 600 men+ medium disruption to 2 divs.
If all 3 were combined i would probably achieve something like 1100 men and medium to heavy disrpt to 2 or 3 divs. All in all it seemed the end results were pretty much the same but if every attack causes disruption then yes, multiple attacks have the upper hand.
but....
There is method in my madness.. the actual reason i generally prefer to use the 3 attacks in the above case instead of 1 big one has nothing to do with the effects on the ground target and never has.
I'd do it to KILL MORE DEFENDING FIGHTERS while also giving the escorts 3 chances to increase training insread of 1.
If no fighters showed up in the above case i would combine the second 2 attacks into one and put the escorts on training for that attack only.
This tactic plus select suprise turns where the luftwaffe does few interdictions but many Airbase attacks can result in heavy sov air casualties.
A prime agenda for the Luftwaffe.
So from now on i can continue the above tactics
but the interdictions will come from seperate HQ's to each target.
Regarding the mules and # of units per HQ.
I no longer use mules and some thought on the units per HQ mater leads me to believe the the BigHQ tactic (which i used mainly to increase airpower while coveribg the whole front) was a bit of overkill compared to say 7 to 8 HQ's with smaller air groups and 5-6 subordinate corps/armies each. The one advantage of the BigHQ and 10 air groups is that i NEVER had a soviet airbase attack reach it's target.(if i remember right) And sov interdiction attacks might get lucky once in a blue moon. The whole concept for me was airpower driven, obviously at the expense of realism of command and control it seems.

Learning and adapting is a big part of the fun of this game (as in PacWar)
Matt and Muz, here comes the new 'improved formula' Wehmacht. Grinds finer..Scorches cleaner.

Nick
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Post by matt.buttsworth »

a good summary of the rules agreed by many would be:
a) no obvious cheats with computer ....
b) no mules
c) no advancing with out of supply units supplied by air
d) each panzer korps must contain one panzer division
e) one air attack per HQ to stop problem of multiple air attacks on same unit by one HQ.
What does everyone think of that summary?
PS - for those interested possum wir is proving really interesting.
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Post by Lorenzo from Spain »

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
e) one air attack per HQ to stop problem of multiple air attacks on same unit by one HQ.
What does everyone think of that summary?
[/QB]
Sorry, I disagree with this. An HQ can attack more than one target: to support another HQ, to prepare operations, to explore the enemy positions...
The rule could be: An HQ must not attack two times the same target, in a turn...

But I think the better would be a change in the code of program, avoiding the lost of 10% of readiness automatically in every air attack, if possible. Someone says it&#769;s done. I&#769;m not sure. SOMEONE KNOWS THIS?
If there is not the automatic loss of readiness, there is not problem to attack a lot of times a target, even from the same HQ.
About Pz korps: too can be with one Pzgr, or Mechanized, even cavalry division.
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:


Sorry, I disagree with this. An HQ can attack more than one target: to support another HQ, to prepare operations, to explore the enemy positions...
The rule could be: An HQ must not attack two times the same target, in a turn...

But I think the better would be a change in the code of program, avoiding the lost of 10% of readiness automatically in every air attack, if possible. Someone says it&#769;s done. I&#769;m not sure. SOMEONE KNOWS THIS?
If there is not the automatic loss of readiness, there is not problem to attack a lot of times a target, even from the same HQ.
About Pz korps: too can be with one Pzgr, or Mechanized, even cavalry division.

Lorenzo

The single interdiction from i HQ on one target rule really effects little change but for range limmitations from the HQ's.
A fix i offered Matt was to limmit total number of interdictions from a HQ to 1/2 the number of bomber/Ga Ac rounded down.(but always get at least one)
This is on top of 'only 1 per HQ on a particular target'
This forces less Interdiction attacks but each is bigger.
As i only rarely use more than 2 or 3 int attacks on a particular unit it wont effect me much but will limmit those who do 6-8-10 or more.

Nick
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Post by moonfog »

My 2 cents on the issue of one HQ launching multiple air attacks on the same target.

I think the arguments on chain of command/command structure brought up in this forum (cf. mule HQs) can also be used on the air attack issue.

As far as I know, the units of the German Luftwaffe weren't attached to the Army commanders in the field. In fact (historically) the Luftwaffe in the east was organized into three different Luftflotten/airfleets which were subordinate/attached to the *Army Group commands*. The Luftwaffe had its own command structure to lead/organize such a Luftflotte. Because of this attachement to the Army Groups and not single Armies it would in my opinion be unhistorical to prohibit multiple air attacks from a Army HQ. I think in WiR the deployment of Luftwaffe units in Army HQs is simulating their room of operation, not any sort of chain of command.

However, taking the Luftwaffe organisation into account, there still remains one limitation: Air attacks on one target are only possible, when the air units taking part are based at HQs belonging to the same Army Group. No coordinated air attacks on one target from different Luftflotten/Army Groups.

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Post by Ranger-75 »

I'm not totally caught up in "you must have this unit in this HQ, or that air group in that AG, so I am not taking any offense at any remarks. In fact, the furst thinh I usually do is change out all the ME109s to FW190s and concentrate on just 2 tank types initially. The German production was completely mis managed in the first 4 years of their war, it wasn't until 1943 that Speer started to get things organized. I'm all for making the most of what you have, just not in exploiting game mechanical shortcoming with methods that were not based in reality (like mules and 15 korps armies).

I'm not proposing an additional "house rule" on the size of an Army HQ, just pointing out that the practice employed by some folks here violates the principles of war.

Loki pointed out the Soviet '41 at start setup has HQs that have 14 or 17 corps in them. That was part of the soviet's problem, their command structure was too overburdened by this.

The Germans on the other hand had some 16 Army HQs (excluding the Finns). They deployed 61 Korps (again excluding Finns) with an average of 3-4 korps per Army HQ. The German command structure was much more efficiently organized than the soviet was, it was just one of many reasons for the dismal performance of the red army in 1941.

Loki mentioned using 7 "front line HQs". In reality, thst is still over stretching the actual command capabilities of the army HQ commander and staff. You should really use all your army command HQs, but nobody is going to force you to do so. You should try it though, you'll end up with more HQs to provide PPs / OPs to the fighting korps.

The only thing I normally do that is not historical is I usually take the Hungarian, Italian and Rumianian air units and place them in German Army HQs, because I usually don't make too many attacks with the allied units (at least not by themselves). In fact in some games, I make these the rear area HQs and have them fight off the partisans.

I also don't have a problem for the Italian motorized / armored units going in a PZ Korps.

I do have a problem with putting allied (Rum, It, Hun, etc) divisions in the west or Italian fronts. The game should not even count the strength of any such units there. That would stop that real quick, wouldn't it.
Still playing PacWar (but no so much anymore)...
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Post by Muzrub »

for those interested possum wir is proving really interesting.

I had a look at the map and he seems to have removed raillines that were there and added one to novogorod that is not on my maps at all.
Also a lake area is on the wrong side of a rail line and several other things.

But his work with the units is fantastic.

I also think his idea with the Crimea is good.
Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Iraq, and i have seen
Things are not what they seem.


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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
I'm not totally caught up in "you must have this unit in this HQ, or that air group in that AG, so I am not taking any offense at any remarks. In fact, the furst thinh I usually do is change out all the ME109s to FW190s and concentrate on just 2 tank types initially. The German production was completely mis managed in the first 4 years of their war, it wasn't until 1943 that Speer started to get things organized. I'm all for making the most of what you have, just not in exploiting game mechanical shortcoming with methods that were not based in reality (like mules and 15 korps armies).

I'm not proposing an additional "house rule" on the size of an Army HQ, just pointing out that the practice employed by some folks here violates the principles of war.

Loki pointed out the Soviet '41 at start setup has HQs that have 14 or 17 corps in them. That was part of the soviet's problem, their command structure was too overburdened by this.

The Germans on the other hand had some 16 Army HQs (excluding the Finns). They deployed 61 Korps (again excluding Finns) with an average of 3-4 korps per Army HQ. The German command structure was much more efficiently organized than the soviet was, it was just one of many reasons for the dismal performance of the red army in 1941.

Loki mentioned using 7 "front line HQs". In reality, thst is still over stretching the actual command capabilities of the army HQ commander and staff. You should really use all your army command HQs, but nobody is going to force you to do so. You should try it though, you'll end up with more HQs to provide PPs / OPs to the fighting korps.

The only thing I normally do that is not historical is I usually take the Hungarian, Italian and Rumianian air units and place them in German Army HQs, because I usually don't make too many attacks with the allied units (at least not by themselves). In fact in some games, I make these the rear area HQs and have them fight off the partisans.

I also don't have a problem for the Italian motorized / armored units going in a PZ Korps.

I do have a problem with putting allied (Rum, It, Hun, etc) divisions in the west or Italian fronts. The game should not even count the strength of any such units there. That would stop that real quick, wouldn't it.

Mike

Actually after some though i've decided to follow the historical german method and have just done the turns for my two german games with nearly all axis HQ's in play with about 3-5 corps in each.
The Luftwaffe however is divided 7 ways with 3frt and 4 bmb in the HQ's covering the most active part of the front. This leaves enough fighters to cover the West and Itallian fronts (with a total of 6 Big well trained FW190 units waiting for the bombing to start) + some bomber units to go in both.
Agree about production, i do the same as you. Other points ditto.

Nick
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Post by PMCN »

Nick, it was actually very common for the germans to concentrate their airforces on the most active HQs. As I said in one of the other topics they were generally always able to achieve local air superiority where they wanted it but always at the expense of conceeding it somewhere else.

I generally leave my Infantrie Armees with only a single fighter and a single ground attack group and give my Pz Armees 2 fighter, 2 stuka, and 1 bomber (or some combination of stuka and bomber that equals 3 groups...but I reserve my german stuka groups for my Pz Armees).

The only that annoys me is how to defend Polesti. There was a special air group HQ assigned to just that task with a couple of good fighter groups assigned to it (to the total surprise of the first allied bombing mission who were expecting second line pilots flying junk). But executing this in the game is darn hard since it seems to require using either of the Rummian Army HQs, the Hungarian Army HQ, the 8th Italian Army HQ or the 2nd German Armee HQ. None of which make any sense.
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Post by Lorenzo from Spain »

A possible solution to the HQ&#769;s mules:

I think it could be change easily the program, to allow only a change of HQ every turn. And more: a change of HQ must cause the unit will not can plot or attack. (In reality, a change of HQ signifies confusion). And cause a little loss of readiness of unit (may be a 10%).
This way will be not HQ mules, and there will be a strong interest in maintain the units near of their main HQ. And too, the enemies HQ will be a good target, because their shatter will implicate the paralyzation during a turn of their attached units (as reality, too).

Similar thing we can do with HQ generals. Now, the goods generals rotate very quickly without penalization. In reality, this would be a chaos. So I propose that the units attached to a HQ which change of general, will not can&#769;t plot this turn. (A change of general, stops the offensive planned operations, during a week).

This changes of program must be not operatives in first turn, to allow some planning liberty to the players. And in the first turn of 41, the soviet Central Front HQ is shattered easily.

This way offensives will be more realistic, but more complicated too. What do you thing about this?
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