WiR Tournament

[Josans]

At this time 7 heroic generals accepted the challenge of the war: MagnusOlsson, Czerpak, CrazyHorse007,Varjager,Yogi Yohan,Loki and Josan.

I WANT YOU TO THE WIR TOURNAMENT (as Uncle Sam).

Still we must argue the tournament rules, scenario, etc... so your opinions (even dont play) are very welcome.

Lets the guns speak!!!

[Kuniworth]

Count me in, I suck but what the heck.

[Muzrub]

I know you guys want me!

So you can have me..........

Mighty Muzrub 'The Great Sage equal to Heaven' offers his devine leadership to the cause!

Hurrah!

[Lorenzo from Spain]

Ok, count on me.
But I bet anything that Josan will won. Anyone bet?

[jesus]

If 2nd class players (Jurassic level) are welcome, count on me

Jesus

[screamer]

sure ill play [ill lose anyway] but what the heck its experience

[Josans]

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
Ok, count on me.
But I bet anything that Josan will won. Anyone bet?

---

Better dont bet nothing Lorenzo. Im afraid of myself. If I arrive to final series I will be happy <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[heiks]

This seems interesting, count me in.

Soo... a few rule ideas:

1. About the structure of the tournament
========================================

It would seem that there are quite a few interested players already, so I would suggest
splitting the people in to groups of four (I quickly counted 12 people in this thread, possibly excluding me (can't remember...)) so that would make 3-4 preliminary groups:

Assuming four groups (A-D)

Preliminary rounds:
All players play one game against every other player in their group.

Semifinals:
The two best players from groups A and B form a new group (E), the two best players from groups C and D form another new groups (F).
The four players in both semifinal-groups again play once against all the other players in their group.

Finals:
The winners of groups E and F play for gold
and the "seconds" play for the bronze.

This is pretty much the standard method for any international team-sport tournament, so the idea should be familiar, right?

This kind of tournament structure has the advantage, that although there aren't that many games for those who lose, the tournament is relatively quick to complete.

2. Reporting the games
======================

Inorder to make following the tournament easier for all the participants and also other people, I suggest that both players write a short AAR of every game they play. This aar, while not necessarily a turn by turn description of the game should however offer a true and fair view (from your perspective naturally) of what happened and possibly some analysis so that we mortals can maybe learn something from you WiR gods <img src="smile.gif" border="0">


Ok, I guess I'd better end this post here before it gets too long...

[Josans]

About the scenarios we can do the 41 campaign till april 42 or we can choose a scenario like Fall Blue or Typhoon. In this last case could be the election at random so the players will dont know what battle will face.

[Lokioftheaesir]

DELETED

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

[Lorenzo from Spain]

Proposal of points:

The game finish in the first turn of April (inclusive), 1942.

German smashing victory: In any moment, German conquest Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov and Voronezh. And one of this cities: Saratov, Gorki, Stalingrad, Maikop, Vologda. German gains 10 points, Soviet losses 5 points.
Soviet smashing victory: At the begin of blizzards, the Soviet conserves Leningrad and Moscow. And one of this cities: Rostov, Voronezh, Demyansk. German loses 5 points, Soviet gains 10 points.
German victory: At the end of game, the Germans are in Moscow and Leningrad. German gains 5 points, Soviet losses 2 points.
Soviet victory: At the end of game, the Russians are in Moscow and Leningrad. German loses 2 points, Soviet gains 5 points.
German tactical victory: At the end of game, the Germans are in Moscow, but not in Leningrad. German gains 2 points. Russian loses 1 point.
Soviet tactical victory: At the end of game, the Soviets are in Moscow, but not in Leningrad. Soviet gains 2 points. German loses 1 point.
Drawn: At the end of game, the Soviets are in Moscow, but not in Leningrad. Moscow has been conquered in any time and Germans are at 3 hexes or minus from Moscow. Nobody gains or loses.

Additional points by losses:
Very complicate because the enormous Soviet loses at the beginning. May be (proportion German/Soviet loses):
Tanks: Equal loses, 2 points to Soviet. 1/2 loses, 1 point to Soviet. 1/3 loses, 1 point to German. 1/4 loses, 2 points to German.
Squads: 1/2 loses, to points to Soviet. 1/3 loses, 1 point to Soviet. 1/4 loses, 1 point to German. 1/5 loses, 2 points to German.

Any sugestions? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
Proposal of points:

The game finish in the first turn of April (inclusive), 1942.

German smashing victory: In any moment, German conquest Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov and Voronezh. And one of this cities: Saratov, Gorki, Stalingrad, Maikop, Vologda. German gains 10 points, Soviet losses 5 points.
Soviet smashing victory: At the begin of blizzards, the Soviet conserves Leningrad and Moscow. And one of this cities: Rostov, Voronezh, Demyansk. German loses 5 points, Soviet gains 10 points.
German victory: At the end of game, the Germans are in Moscow and Leningrad. German gains 5 points, Soviet losses 2 points.
Soviet victory: At the end of game, the Russians are in Moscow and Leningrad. German loses 2 points, Soviet gains 5 points.
German tactical victory: At the end of game, the Germans are in Moscow, but not in Leningrad. German gains 2 points. Russian loses 1 point.
Soviet tactical victory: At the end of game, the Soviets are in Moscow, but not in Leningrad. Soviet gains 2 points. German loses 1 point.
Drawn: At the end of game, the Soviets are in Moscow, but not in Leningrad. Moscow has been conquered in any time and Germans are at 3 hexes or minus from Moscow. Nobody gains or loses.

Additional points by losses:
Very complicate because the enormous Soviet loses at the beginning. May be (proportion German/Soviet loses):
Tanks: Equal loses, 2 points to Soviet. 1/2 loses, 1 point to Soviet. 1/3 loses, 1 point to German. 1/4 loses, 2 points to German.
Squads: 1/2 loses, to points to Soviet. 1/3 loses, 1 point to Soviet. 1/4 loses, 1 point to German. 1/5 loses, 2 points to German.

Any sugestions? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

---

Lorenzo

Some good points.
However its no good saying german smashing victory after taking cities x,y, and z and allocating points for the act. The points system determines wether its a marginal,tactical,operational or strategic victory. So in your first example(german smashing victory) the cities gained would result in +10 VP's to the Axis and -5VP's to the soviets and when the VP's were added up 'then' the level ov victory is determined.(at the end of the game) All of those cities could be held by weak forces that are thrown out of the cities in question on the next turn. Thus regaining the VP's for the soviets(city control) but not the VP;s gained by the axis (psycholical VP's) for taking that set of cities in the first place.
Victory is determined solely by the VP total at the END OF THE GAME. This is why correct allocation of city VP's and Loss Vp's is so Important. The extra (psychological gains) VP bonus is a oft used and a good idea but must be used sparingly.
All the above is important because if it is decided that all players compete with eachother in a point playoff in the first round then any level of victory is important.
I believe that there should be only 3 ways a game can end
1. One player conceeds
2. The last turn is played
3. One player has no forces on the map.
In my book there is no circumstance where the axis can force any sort of end to the game due to 'brilliant play' in capturing VP cities. The game can only end in one of the above 3 situations. After all, unlikely as it is, the soviets may recapture many of those trigger cities that the germans aim to capture and end the game with.
I've seen it done in many moderated games and there is no end to the arguements. My way removes this problem.
Who owns what AT THE END OF THE GAME(+ ingame VP bonuses) and what casualties both sides have suffered is ALL that matters.

Nick

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

[Muzrub]

How about this:

Germans lose if over 30,000 sq before the soviets are 75,000.
If the Germans are under 30,000 and Soviets over 75,000 Germans win.

Anyway something like that- maybe the figures can be changed. This allows a summer offensive 41- Soviet reply 41-42 and maybe even another summer and winter offensive. It also forces the German player not to dash ahead in 41 infear of greater losses if not entrenched well before winter.

SO its about losses not cities- but if you lose cities- resources you will take losses.

How's that!

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Muzrub:
How about this:

Germans lose if over 30,000 sq before the soviets are 75,000.
If the Germans are under 30,000 and Soviets over 75,000 Germans win.

Anyway something like that- maybe the figures can be changed. This allows a summer offensive 41- Soviet reply 41-42 and maybe even another summer and winter offensive. It also forces the German player not to dash ahead in 41 infear of greater losses if not entrenched well before winter.

SO its about losses not cities- but if you lose cities- resources you will take losses.

How's that!

---

Muzz

Wont work, What happens if the germans lose 31000 squads and the soviets are 74000 (or any similar ratio) but the axis hold ALL the VP cities or the Soviets hold All the VP cities.
Every possibillity must be allowed for. VP's for losses must be integrated with VP's for city gains at the end of the game.
My aim is to make sure everyone is satisfied with the standing rules of a tourney so that no eyes will be scratched out in arguments over game results. Could'nt happen you say? Ha!! I've seen grown men screaming and throwing coke cans while another tried to upend the game table at a World in flames Tournament. (thats WiR all over the world).Respectable gents can become nutters over heartfelt interests.

Nick

PS. The funny end to the 'World in flame' tourney was that the moderator asked myself and 2 other moderators to step in and judge the final positions in the game to decide a winner.
The game situation was very mixed up, could have gone either way. After some consideration i called an axis win while the second moderator calld an allied win. What did the third guy do?
He called a draw.. bastard.

[Muzrub]

Wont work, What happens if the germans lose 31000 squads and the soviets are 74000 (or any similar ratio) but the axis hold ALL the VP cities or the Soviets hold All the VP cities.

What is the chance it is going to run until 1945?

The point is VP dont matter- its troop conservation the better player can skill fully attack or know when to withdraw.

You could add another rule to it if you wish:

Moscow + leningrad + Rostov by november 41 germans win.

1942
Moscow - Stalingrad fall german win

+Germans lose if over 30,000 sq before the soviets are 75,000.
If the Germans are under 30,000 and Soviets over 75,000 Germans win.


Both mean the Germans have to atttack and the Russians defend- and in the winter the opposite applies.

So the russian cant run away and the germans must plan attacks.

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Muzrub ]</p>

[CRAZY_HORSE007]

I was thinking at more simple way to have a winnar, why not play german and russian in the same time against your opponent. At the end of the dead time you just have to compare the 2 results and the winnar will be easely determined with comparaison of the 2 result.

I was thinking too, at a ranking system, based on your best game against AI (like kuniworth victory in 09/41). The best players sould them play each other at the very end of the tournament.

What do you think about that guys?

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Muzrub]

If we run on a purely VP based game its going to take too long- people are not going to care after 3 years of tournie who won the bloody thing.

Thats a system that uses sq losses to determine who wins would be of greater use.
It creates a faster game.

The soviets wont run away completly if it means the loss of Moscow- leningrad- Rostov is an automatic german victory.

And the Germans will have to launch and offensive in 42 to either:

1)Take at least two of these cities - but remove Rostov and replace with Stalingrad
2)To cause the soviets losses.

In 41 the Germans can win if they risk it all- but if they dont take their goals and recieve heavly losses they will lose in the end and soon.
The Soviets can retreat but if they go to far they risk the loss of these cities either late 41 or early 42 and then lose.


Its a faster game-


Protect 3 cities
Germans keep losses under 30,000-35,000
Russians keep losses under 75,000.


Both of these sides can have these amounts in losses by 42-43.


And thus end game

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Muzrub:
If we run on a purely VP based game its going to take too long- people are not going to care after 3 years of tournie who won the bloody thing.

Thats a system that uses sq losses to determine who wins would be of greater use.
It creates a faster game.

The soviets wont run away completly if it means the loss of Moscow- leningrad- Rostov is an automatic german victory.

And the Germans will have to launch and offensive in 42 to either:

1)Take at least two of these cities - but remove Rostov and replace with Stalingrad
2)To cause the soviets losses.

In 41 the Germans can win if they risk it all- but if they dont take their goals and recieve heavly losses they will lose in the end and soon.
The Soviets can retreat but if they go to far they risk the loss of these cities either late 41 or early 42 and then lose.

Its a faster game-

Protect 3 cities
Germans keep losses under 30,000-35,000
Russians keep losses under 75,000.

Both of these sides can have these amounts in losses by 42-43.

And thus end game

---

Muzz

My only comment on the length of a game was to the last turn of '41 and Lorenzo suggested 1st turn of april '42. Both these(though Lorenzos is fairer) gives the sovs a turn at attacking. A tourney with games any longer than this would be a waste of time.
What happens if the axis takes Lngrd/Mscw?Rstv
by oct41(your automatic victory) but if the game continues to Feb 42 the Sovs take all 3 back?(and inflict heavy losses on he axis) Who has won?
Could'nt happen?
Says who?

Nick

[Muzrub]

What happens if the axis takes Lngrd/Mscw?Rstv

If that happens then the Soviet player did not put up much of a fight- nor did he prepare defences to well.
But for the Germans to take all these cities then they really have to move fast and take losses- maybe even continiue to fight in to first snows.

So Yes the Germans can get there- with effort- but there would be no counter attack with heavy german losses for the soviets would have already lost- so it cant happen.

The reason why I thought this would work is because it would take skill- to attack and conserve at the same time- while creating a really fast campaign or just a really good struggle for space and limited losses.
Without a complicated point system.

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Muzrub ]</p>

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Muzrub:
What happens if the axis takes Lngrd/Mscw?Rstv

If that happens then the Soviet player did not put up much of a fight- nor did he prepare defences to well.....

So Yes the Germans can get there- with effort- but there would be no counter attack with heavy german losses for the soviets would have already lost- so it cant happen......

]

---

Muzz

Really? (it cant happen)
Under any circumstances?
I'm speaking as a moderator here.
Every posibillity must be catered to or you have a loophole.
And this includes player abillity and quirks.
Who knows how any two individuals will play when faced off.
I can quite easily imagine a situation where the german shoots his wad taking those 3 cities while the sovs are building up a big reserve. Along comes Mr mud. The sovs move up the reserves.
Mr blizzard arrives and over the next 8 blizzard turns those cities change hands in a no to friendly manner.

Nick