It occurred to me a couple of days ago that there was no reason to keep the bug and issues list as some kind of secret. There is nothing wrong that I see with releasing these lists for your consumption, and possibly it will be a good thing with so many eyeballs looking at it.
So if your interested:
http://pages.xtn.net/~ecogburn/bugissue.zip
Bugs and Issues - if you're interested
-
Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
- Contact:
Hello Ed.
Some things I'd like to add to the Issues sublist. Many units have hardcoded upgrades. Could these be
made dependent on the formation code rather than
a dedicated unit slot? As at present there are only 35 formation types avaliable. Surely this is capable of being expanded?
For example: At the present, all Soviet Motorised divisions in slots #430 to #459 are hard coded
to become Rifle divisions in August 1941.
They are all formation type 5. All the German Motorised divisions in slots #52 to #64 become PzG divisions in august 1943. they too are formation type 5. so add in two new formation codes, call them, say, formations 105 and 205. and change the hard code so that formation type 105 will change from a Motorised Division to a Rifle division in August 1941; and that formation 205 will change from a Motorised Division to a PzG Division come August 1943. This would eliminate the many hadcoded unit slots, and instead replace them with easier to manage formation hardcodes.
While I'm at it I'd like to see more formation types added, specifically Soviet Airborn Corps (An amalgamation of three Airborn/Parachute Brigades) that morph into Soviet Rifle Divisions come November 1941. Mountain Cavalry Divisions, Mechanised Cavalry Divisions (or Light Tank Divisions), Ski/Jager Divisions,Marine Divisions,
Security Divisions, and Cavalry Corps/Korps
(As a new on map icon type).
Nice also would be the addition of the many different tank Regiments and Batallions fielded
by the Soviets. (At present it seems that Soviet
Tank regiments are alwys assumed to be heavy tank
regiments, and so never grow bigger than 44 tanks.)
Also some more nationalities too please.
Specifically, the Slovaks and the Spanish.
(so they could be coded to vanish as per another
issue.) As well as adding in the Luftwaffe, NKVD,
Soviet Militia, Soviet Naval, and the Italian
Facists (coded to be excempt from the surrender
of the Italian forces.)
Also, is there any chance of having the number of unit slots increased? I found when compiling my custom OBWIR that I had to leave approximatley 200 divisions/brigades out, as there simply wasn't the slots for them. I could have also used slots for another 20 HQ's as well.
Another Issue I found was the 254 Squad limit. This is quite low, although I understand the Logic
as to why this number is the limt, It would be
nice if it could be made larger. As many Divisions
actually have far in excess of this number of squads at full TO&E.
Finally, any chance of incorporating the codeing
from Western Front to allow the creation of a
single Division/Corps unit as an on map manuver
unit for a single Division/Corps plus some
attached batallions?
As well as allowing airborn and amphibious assaults?
Thank You.
Some things I'd like to add to the Issues sublist. Many units have hardcoded upgrades. Could these be
made dependent on the formation code rather than
a dedicated unit slot? As at present there are only 35 formation types avaliable. Surely this is capable of being expanded?
For example: At the present, all Soviet Motorised divisions in slots #430 to #459 are hard coded
to become Rifle divisions in August 1941.
They are all formation type 5. All the German Motorised divisions in slots #52 to #64 become PzG divisions in august 1943. they too are formation type 5. so add in two new formation codes, call them, say, formations 105 and 205. and change the hard code so that formation type 105 will change from a Motorised Division to a Rifle division in August 1941; and that formation 205 will change from a Motorised Division to a PzG Division come August 1943. This would eliminate the many hadcoded unit slots, and instead replace them with easier to manage formation hardcodes.
While I'm at it I'd like to see more formation types added, specifically Soviet Airborn Corps (An amalgamation of three Airborn/Parachute Brigades) that morph into Soviet Rifle Divisions come November 1941. Mountain Cavalry Divisions, Mechanised Cavalry Divisions (or Light Tank Divisions), Ski/Jager Divisions,Marine Divisions,
Security Divisions, and Cavalry Corps/Korps
(As a new on map icon type).
Nice also would be the addition of the many different tank Regiments and Batallions fielded
by the Soviets. (At present it seems that Soviet
Tank regiments are alwys assumed to be heavy tank
regiments, and so never grow bigger than 44 tanks.)
Also some more nationalities too please.
Specifically, the Slovaks and the Spanish.
(so they could be coded to vanish as per another
issue.) As well as adding in the Luftwaffe, NKVD,
Soviet Militia, Soviet Naval, and the Italian
Facists (coded to be excempt from the surrender
of the Italian forces.)
Also, is there any chance of having the number of unit slots increased? I found when compiling my custom OBWIR that I had to leave approximatley 200 divisions/brigades out, as there simply wasn't the slots for them. I could have also used slots for another 20 HQ's as well.
Another Issue I found was the 254 Squad limit. This is quite low, although I understand the Logic
as to why this number is the limt, It would be
nice if it could be made larger. As many Divisions
actually have far in excess of this number of squads at full TO&E.
Finally, any chance of incorporating the codeing
from Western Front to allow the creation of a
single Division/Corps unit as an on map manuver
unit for a single Division/Corps plus some
attached batallions?
As well as allowing airborn and amphibious assaults?
Thank You.
"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
Hello everybody.
I have enjoyed following this wir forum and I've decided that I might contribute something as well. Before I go to the specific suggestions I have to say that the team has done a great job of this game (I bought it in 1994 on a floppy disk and have spent numerous hours before it) and I wish to thank you all.
I have read the lists of bugs and issues and I second most of the suggestion. I will try to add some of my own.
Map
It seems to me that the map is not quite accurate in the Balkans (I am originally from Serbia). In particular I suggest
1. Adding a rail line from Bucharest to Budapest going across Carpathian mountains a hex or two west of Ploesti(or through Ploesti). There are two lines in my modern atlas, one of which is Bucharest-Ploesti-Brasov-Sibiu-Arad-Szolnok-Budapest. A quick look at my Times Atlas of World History (Industrial Revolution in Europe 1870-1914) confirms that there indeed was a similar line built between 1870 and 1914.
2. Changing the Bucharest-Belgrade line. It seems to me that the true line went from Belgrade to Vrsac, then to Timisoara and then to Turnu Severin and further to Bucharest. Of course, this line should be connected to the previous one by the link Timisoara-Arad. There was at least one rail line from Hungary to Rumania not passing through Yugoslavia in 1941 as the German 12th Army was able to concentrate in Rumania and then cross Danube to Bulgaria in March 1941.
3. There might have been another line, linking with the one in 1. going through Szolnok, Oradea and Cluj.
4. Adding the Tisza river passing through Hungary and Yugoslavia and changing the course of Danube from Budapest to Belgrade appropriately so that it has some resemblance of the true course. The river joining Danube downstream from Belgrade can be removed (I assume it is the Tamis river).
5. Filling the clear space between the mountains with forests (to represent hills). This should be done all around the Carpathian mountains (in Slovakia in particular), in Balkans and elsewhere (it might be a better idea to introduce the 'hills' terrain type?).
6. The rail line Belgrade-Trieste (through Zagreb) should go a hex or two north from where it is now. Trieste should be moved one hex to the west if possible.
7. The terrain in Balkans in general should be redone.
OOB's and Equipment
I think that the players should have option to disband divisions and return their complements to the pool to be used by other divisions. This way fewer but stonger divisions may be built. This should come at a cost of experience and should be limited to prevent the abuse like disbanding Axis minor divisions to reinforce Germans. The disbanded divisions can return 10 or so weeks later.
There should be an ability to put more than 26(?) units to the Western and Italian fronts. This would be much more sensible than using some parts of OKW strength. After all, Germans had 58 divisions in the west in June 1944. One way would be to count the Korps' subordinate to these HQs and also in prescribed locations on the map towards their parent HQ strenghts (if this is not already done) or to have two Western HQ's (AG 'B' and AG 'G' of June 1944). It would also make sense to add a Norway HQ and a Balkans HQ subordinate to OKW with their own events (say abandoning Norway should bring Finland out of war, have Germany lose some resources and increase allied strength against West Front but keeping Norway should be easy with a dozen divisions or so).
Not all German motorized divisions were converted to PzG divs (e.g. the 14th Motorized Div which was converted to an ordinary infantry division; source: http://www.feldgrau.com/14im.html)
The Luftwaffe OB can be improved upon by adding the conversions of StG's to SG's and similar. Also, the German airgroups should have a smaller maximum number of planes - 250 is too large. Maybe some arrival times of new geschwaders should be moved forward in order to accommodate players who have too many aircraft in pools but too few units.
I have enjoyed following this wir forum and I've decided that I might contribute something as well. Before I go to the specific suggestions I have to say that the team has done a great job of this game (I bought it in 1994 on a floppy disk and have spent numerous hours before it) and I wish to thank you all.
I have read the lists of bugs and issues and I second most of the suggestion. I will try to add some of my own.
Map
It seems to me that the map is not quite accurate in the Balkans (I am originally from Serbia). In particular I suggest
1. Adding a rail line from Bucharest to Budapest going across Carpathian mountains a hex or two west of Ploesti(or through Ploesti). There are two lines in my modern atlas, one of which is Bucharest-Ploesti-Brasov-Sibiu-Arad-Szolnok-Budapest. A quick look at my Times Atlas of World History (Industrial Revolution in Europe 1870-1914) confirms that there indeed was a similar line built between 1870 and 1914.
2. Changing the Bucharest-Belgrade line. It seems to me that the true line went from Belgrade to Vrsac, then to Timisoara and then to Turnu Severin and further to Bucharest. Of course, this line should be connected to the previous one by the link Timisoara-Arad. There was at least one rail line from Hungary to Rumania not passing through Yugoslavia in 1941 as the German 12th Army was able to concentrate in Rumania and then cross Danube to Bulgaria in March 1941.
3. There might have been another line, linking with the one in 1. going through Szolnok, Oradea and Cluj.
4. Adding the Tisza river passing through Hungary and Yugoslavia and changing the course of Danube from Budapest to Belgrade appropriately so that it has some resemblance of the true course. The river joining Danube downstream from Belgrade can be removed (I assume it is the Tamis river).
5. Filling the clear space between the mountains with forests (to represent hills). This should be done all around the Carpathian mountains (in Slovakia in particular), in Balkans and elsewhere (it might be a better idea to introduce the 'hills' terrain type?).
6. The rail line Belgrade-Trieste (through Zagreb) should go a hex or two north from where it is now. Trieste should be moved one hex to the west if possible.
7. The terrain in Balkans in general should be redone.
OOB's and Equipment
I think that the players should have option to disband divisions and return their complements to the pool to be used by other divisions. This way fewer but stonger divisions may be built. This should come at a cost of experience and should be limited to prevent the abuse like disbanding Axis minor divisions to reinforce Germans. The disbanded divisions can return 10 or so weeks later.
There should be an ability to put more than 26(?) units to the Western and Italian fronts. This would be much more sensible than using some parts of OKW strength. After all, Germans had 58 divisions in the west in June 1944. One way would be to count the Korps' subordinate to these HQs and also in prescribed locations on the map towards their parent HQ strenghts (if this is not already done) or to have two Western HQ's (AG 'B' and AG 'G' of June 1944). It would also make sense to add a Norway HQ and a Balkans HQ subordinate to OKW with their own events (say abandoning Norway should bring Finland out of war, have Germany lose some resources and increase allied strength against West Front but keeping Norway should be easy with a dozen divisions or so).
Not all German motorized divisions were converted to PzG divs (e.g. the 14th Motorized Div which was converted to an ordinary infantry division; source: http://www.feldgrau.com/14im.html)
The Luftwaffe OB can be improved upon by adding the conversions of StG's to SG's and similar. Also, the German airgroups should have a smaller maximum number of planes - 250 is too large. Maybe some arrival times of new geschwaders should be moved forward in order to accommodate players who have too many aircraft in pools but too few units.
small thing to add : there were 2 Polish armies in Red Army starting from 1944 ( with tank brigades, own air force etc)Originally posted by Possum:
Hello Ed.
Also some more nationalities too please.
Specifically, the Slovaks and the Spanish.
(so they could be coded to vanish as per another
issue.) As well as adding in the Luftwaffe, NKVD,
Soviet Militia, Soviet Naval, and the Italian
Facists (coded to be excempt from the surrender
of the Italian forces.)
regards
Maciej
Think first, fight afterwards, the soldier's art.
Ed,Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
It occurred to me a couple of days ago that there was no reason to keep the bug and issues list as some kind of secret. There is nothing wrong that I see with releasing these lists for your consumption, and possibly it will be a good thing with so many eyeballs looking at it.
So if your interested:
http://pages.xtn.net/~ecogburn/bugissue.zip
I had a look into bugs list and have one comment :
bug 7) special supply exploit #2 move division
There is a proposal to disallow transfer from a corps that has received special supply.
Sometimes it is impossible to transfer a unit from a corp if you dont special supply it. Here is my example :
I have a full corp (8 sub units) which had a heavy fighting previous turn. I want to reinforce it with fresh unit. To do so I have to take some exhausted unit from this corp. And units readiness in this corp is below 50. So I special supply it to get readiness up, then withdraw one or more units to recover and transfer fresh unit(s) to this corp. I think even you <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> cannot find anything unrealistic in my actions, but if transfer from a corp which received ss will be disallowed I wont be able to do that.
regards
Maciej
Think first, fight afterwards, the soldier's art.
-
Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
- Contact:
Originally posted by Possum:
Hello Ed.
Some things I'd like to add to the Issues sublist.
......
Wow. I happen to agree with you on many of these points, but the reality is additions/modifications that expand the amount of data needed are not likely to ever happen. In fact, you all need to realize there is a decent chance *none* of the things in the issues list except cosmetic changes are likely to happen. We are at the limit of memory as it is, many get out of memory errors now when using certain features of the game. I get such messages when trying to use the review battle feature. We're already too close to the limit.
I'll put some of these that look like they would need little or no memory to implement on the issues list, but the bottom line is, unfortunately, you shouldn't hold your breath. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
- Contact:
Originally posted by Stolpnik:
It seems to me that the map is not quite accurate in the Balkans (I am originally from Serbia).
Mist is our map guy (maintainer). I've told him of this thread and your suggestions.
disband divisions
I don't see this as really necessary, given that in the next version there will be the ability to "delete" a division. Being able to delete one will solve most issues like this. Disbanding a division only to have it return later is usually what people don't want, they want a division that "goes away" permanently. I'll put this on the issues list anyway, disbanding may be something that interests Arnaud.
The limit is a practical one, the number of letters in the alphabet. To extend this means using more memory for every HQ type in the game, ignoring the much bigger problem of not having any space for new HQs or Divisions. To do this just for the Western/Italian fronts means special purpose code in dozens of locations to make it work. Either way that consumes more memory. I'll put it on the list anyway, but I doubt something like this can happen, even though I wish it too, a lack of memory is the killer problem we have.
There should be an ability to put more than 26(?) units to the Western and Italian fronts.
Not all German motorized divisions were converted to PzG divs
How many were there? If its just a handful of divisions (less than a dozen), then I don't think this is something that justifies the work Arnaud would have to do to include a new hardwired conversion routine. If its more than a dozen let me know.
The Luftwaffe OB can be improved upon by adding the conversions of StG's to SG's and similar. Also, the German airgroups should have a smaller maximum number of planes - 250 is too large. Maybe some arrival times of new geschwaders should be moved forward in order to accommodate players who have too many aircraft in pools but too few units.
Ok, on the list.
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Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
- Contact:
Originally posted by czerpak:
small thing to add : there were 2 Polish armies in Red Army starting from 1944 ( with tank brigades, own air force etc)
So which divisions do we remove from the game to add these? That's are problem you see, all slots for divisions in the game are already used, and adding more leads to the memory problem again. If there were room for these units I'd be all for this.
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Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
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Originally posted by czerpak:
Ed,
I had a look into bugs list and have one comment :
bug 7) special supply exploit #2 move division
There is a proposal to disallow transfer from a corps that has received special supply.
You're right, it would block a legitimate use of special supply. I'll edit that bug entry.
To all:
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Bug reports, or reports needing addition or clarification, are welcome too.
[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>
In that case it would be the best if we could form divisions (and other units including airgroups) as well as delete them. Some types (like PzG divs, Tiger detachments) could be restricted or become available later. These newly formed divisions would arrive totally empty (or with some strength from the pools) while the full strength divisions arriving from other theaters (e.g. Siberian rifle divs or German 3rd Mountain div etc.) could be forbidden to form. I hope this would not be hard to do along the line of the 'add div' menu of the scenario editor with the full strength units not appearing on the list. I was worried that one might wish to delete a unit while having no replacements and that later, when the pools fill up, no units would be there to take the available men and equipment.Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
quote:
disband divisions
I don't see this as really necessary, given that in the next version there will be the ability to "delete" a division. Being able to delete one will solve most issues like this. Disbanding a division only to have it return later is usually what people don't want, they want a division that "goes away" permanently. I'll put this on the issues list anyway, disbanding may be something that interests Arnaud.
Is there any problem with allowing players to form and disband (empty) units as they see fit in general?
It seems that 14th Motorized was indeed a unique example and they tried to convert it to PzG div as well but failed.
quote:
Not all German motorized divisions were converted to PzG divs
How many were there? If its just a handful of divisions (less than a dozen), then I don't think this is something that justifies the work Arnaud would have to do to include a new hardwired conversion routine. If its more than a dozen let me know.
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Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
- Contact:
Originally posted by Stolpnik:
In that case it would be the best if we could form divisions (and other units including airgroups) as well as delete them. Some types (like PzG divs, Tiger detachments) could be restricted or become available later. These newly formed divisions would arrive totally empty (or with some strength from the pools) while the full strength divisions arriving from other theaters (e.g. Siberian rifle divs or German 3rd Mountain div etc.) could be forbidden to form. I hope this would not be hard to do along the line of the 'add div' menu of the scenario editor with the full strength units not appearing on the list.
You can do all this with editwir except for "forbidding" a unit to form, and that can be done with the delete division ability in the next wir.
I was worried that one might wish to delete a unit while having no replacements and that later, when the pools fill up, no units would be there to take the available men and equipment.
I'm not sure I understand the importance of this here. Given close to historical results, the Soviets will fill up all their units by '44 with many many squads left over. Germany on the other hand is going to be short for the duration of the war. The Soviets will stop caring about squads altogether while the Germans will want to delete lesser divisions *permanently* to force the replacements to the better divisions. Who is going to want to take a couple of months to build a division up from scratch when that means the division will have a lousy experience level once the build up is done? There may be transitional periods where this feature might be used, but I don't see Arnaud doing all this work for a feature that will not be used regularly, or more likely, not used at all.
Is there any problem with allowing players to form and disband (empty) units as they see fit in general?
No problem with it in general, in another game I'd be all for it, its just that there is no compelling need for this feature in WIR given the time consuming job Arnaud would have in implementing it, the likely hit to RAM this feature would inflict, and what I believe would be very little use of it by players.
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Mika Väliviita
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Tampere,Finland
Some more bugs, but I have some more info on the old ones I mentioned.
1)Alt+r report with recon pools, it seems that if you do alt+r more than once without quitting in between, the previous total of recon vehicles is added to the current count. And it seems both sides use same variable so if you first make german report and do combat, then make soviet report, the soviet report shows as recon total:german+soviet recon.
2)Germans bombing Sweden, I think this becomes "fixed" as soon as computer starts bringing back destroyed HQs. Also related might have been the extreme shattering during blizzard 41 since I had destroyed several HQs. But maybe not since next time I intentionally avoided destroying HQs (which was hard since they stood happily in the frontline) but lot of korps still shattered.
3)Reforming. I noticed that all soviet rgts reform with heavy tanks, and bdes reform with medium tanks. Valentines (and other lend lease) seems to be a special case either way. Since the reforming starts at a different time from the overall change in the tank corps vs. tank army, we see lot of same bde/rgt reforming.
New ones:
4)With the changes in the database of arrival times of tanks and aircraft, some of the "prototype" units arrive much earlier than they are available for production, some over a year early.
5)Related to 3) and 4), late arriving mech corps have JS-Is in tank bdes, but they are instantly reformed to T34s.
6)It seems like the aircraft losses in the US bombings aren't counted in the totals if the soviet player saves and exits. Maybe they are added, but it's not shown.
7)Allied bombers occasionally drop 58000+ tons of bombs, that seems a bit much <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
8)Maybe someone else has better knowledge, but the combat losses for recon vehicles seem to be too much.
9)I captured Venice, but then the Italian Front collapsed and my Army was trapped at SL0, and it could not be moved or plotted away. Also the railroad through the alps became unusable for soviets (this I can reason).
10)I had surrounded Vienna completely, but the computer kept reinforcing it, and was also able to move divisions out of there.
11)Alt+r doesn't seem to show every unit, quick glance indicates that units directly in HQs aren't "on map".
Mika
1)Alt+r report with recon pools, it seems that if you do alt+r more than once without quitting in between, the previous total of recon vehicles is added to the current count. And it seems both sides use same variable so if you first make german report and do combat, then make soviet report, the soviet report shows as recon total:german+soviet recon.
2)Germans bombing Sweden, I think this becomes "fixed" as soon as computer starts bringing back destroyed HQs. Also related might have been the extreme shattering during blizzard 41 since I had destroyed several HQs. But maybe not since next time I intentionally avoided destroying HQs (which was hard since they stood happily in the frontline) but lot of korps still shattered.
3)Reforming. I noticed that all soviet rgts reform with heavy tanks, and bdes reform with medium tanks. Valentines (and other lend lease) seems to be a special case either way. Since the reforming starts at a different time from the overall change in the tank corps vs. tank army, we see lot of same bde/rgt reforming.
New ones:
4)With the changes in the database of arrival times of tanks and aircraft, some of the "prototype" units arrive much earlier than they are available for production, some over a year early.
5)Related to 3) and 4), late arriving mech corps have JS-Is in tank bdes, but they are instantly reformed to T34s.
6)It seems like the aircraft losses in the US bombings aren't counted in the totals if the soviet player saves and exits. Maybe they are added, but it's not shown.
7)Allied bombers occasionally drop 58000+ tons of bombs, that seems a bit much <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
8)Maybe someone else has better knowledge, but the combat losses for recon vehicles seem to be too much.
9)I captured Venice, but then the Italian Front collapsed and my Army was trapped at SL0, and it could not be moved or plotted away. Also the railroad through the alps became unusable for soviets (this I can reason).
10)I had surrounded Vienna completely, but the computer kept reinforcing it, and was also able to move divisions out of there.
11)Alt+r doesn't seem to show every unit, quick glance indicates that units directly in HQs aren't "on map".
Mika
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SoleSurvivor
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- Contact:
Let me guess, using a dos extender or adressing EMS/XMS is out of question because it is way too much work?
"Wenn sie jetzt ganz unverhohlen
wieder Nazilieder johlen
über Juden Witze machen
über Menschenrechte lachen
wenn sie dann in lauten Tönen
saufend ihrer Dummheit frönen
denn am Deutschen hinterm Tresen
muss nun mal die Welt genesen
dann steh auf u
wieder Nazilieder johlen
über Juden Witze machen
über Menschenrechte lachen
wenn sie dann in lauten Tönen
saufend ihrer Dummheit frönen
denn am Deutschen hinterm Tresen
muss nun mal die Welt genesen
dann steh auf u
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Ed Cogburn
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- Contact:
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Ed Cogburn
- Posts: 1641
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
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Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
Let me guess, using a dos extender or adressing EMS/XMS is out of question because it is way too much work?
Yes.
Please, you guys have to realize Arnuad is an unpaid volunteer working on his own free time. He is not a Matrix employee. No one else works with him, he's the only one with access to the source code. Matrix is not providing any assets to this work on WiR. None. Its just Arnaud, and a half dozen other volunteers who keep pestering him about bugs and issues. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I'm also confident 2BY3 Games, ie. Gary Grigsby and at least one other programmer, will, once they find a willing publisher, have WIRIII out before Arnaud, working half time, could rewrite WIR to use a DOS extender. And yes, it will largely be a rewrite, its simply not possible to slap a DOS extender on WIR as it is now, tweak a few things, and have all our memory troubles go away. It ain't that simple folks. Sorry. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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Mika Väliviita
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- Location: Tampere,Finland
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Ed Cogburn
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Originally posted by Mika Väliviita:
About the lack of memory, would it help if the inbuilt editor was removed? I don't know if there is arcane dos-magic at work that would make this irrelevant. The editor could be a separate version if it is even needed with editwir around.
WIR was built using a module swap ability, swapping chunks of code in and out of memory as needed, the word "overlay" was used to describe this. In reality it is necessary to use it for WiR because WiR is already to large to fit and run in DOS's 640k memory, once all data is declared and space allocated for it (or at least its very very close). While not especially fine grained, this overlay capability is good enough to avoid the problem you bring up, because the editor (I believe) does not need any knew data space, it uses the same amount of data space the game uses, so the editor "feature" is comprised almost entirely of code. If the game is run, and the editor capability is never used, it is never loaded into RAM. If it is used, then a normal game is started, the overlayer will eventually swap the editor code out to disk to make free RAM available as the game asks for new space.
I've thought of this myself, it might be that removing it saves a little RAM, say 5K, 10K, 15K, because the overlayer isn't 100% efficient and the overlayer itself takes up space (but its very small).
Trying to take the editor out would not necessarily be a simple task for Arnaud though, it depends on how tightly Gary wrote the editor "into" the game's main "infrastructure" (is it highly modularized or not). I'll bet Arnaud has thought about the same thing, and since he hasn't done this, its probably hard to do. Also, keep in mind the merge of the graphical editor with editwir is definitely not a simple thing to do. I'll ask him though.