Is Sealion possible?

[Barthheart]

IIRC - if I recall correctly

IIRC most of the battle of britian dog fights took place over the channel or the extreme southern edge of the island. German fighters really didn't have the range to escort their bombers over London. One German tactic was to lure British fighters into dog fights over the channel, while the bombers went a different route.

[daskomodo]

Back to the origional topic: It just seems ODD that it's easier to invade Scotland than southern England in GGWaW.

Yeah, I found that puzzling too. Range 1 fighters can't even reach Dover, but range 2 fighters are all over Scotland. Historically, I doubt anyone, either German or British, planned for the amphibious invasion of Scotland.

My suspicion is that this is a gamey compromise to force England to spread out his garrisons and thus render the UK a bit more "invadeable". England needs to be well defended in both regions.

Otherwise, the Allies could easaily just place all his defensive garrisons in England and render itinvulnerable to attack. This would allow him to spread out troops further around the globe, to ahistoric levels (to greater impact to the game than having to garrison Scotland).

I guess another solution could be to divide England into two regions and remove the link between Scotland and the North Sea, but that might open up another can of worms.

[Joel Billings]

Daskomodo is right on here. First, we felt that not having fighters be able to support operations in England was not far off from the reality of their limited range, and was forced on us by the game system and map scale. This didn't really bother us given their inability to cover more than a small area of Southern England (yes we realize that this was the only way it was considered possible to invade England). Second, forcing the English player to defend both England and Scotland does make it more difficult for the British to use their units in the rest of the world at a time when their focus had to be on protecting the UK. It is gamey, but given our choices, we thought it accomplished something very useful for gameplay (provides a way to invade the UK if Germany wants to attempt it). A game that is at this scale that is also trying to "stay simple" is going to have to live with a few of these kinds of oddities to get the overall feeling right.

[Traveler]

I've messed around a lot trying to take England.

Yes, it can be done, but it's pointless. Germany spends so many resources doing the invasion that Russia and the USA will clobber it when they unfreeze.

[hakon]

In my opinion, a german invasion of scotland (not to mention the support of those forces after established), is a lot more far fetched than germany's ability to fly their fighters over england (range 1).

Ideally, i would like to see the following:

1. Sea-zones around scotland should be reworked. For example the Scapa Flow sea area could be extended south to the scotland-england border, or the western north sea area could be split in 2. England should be able to easily have air superiority in this area in the early war.

2. Flying across narrows should only consume 1 movement point for aircraft.

3. 1 of the English artillery should be in the Netherlands at the start of the game.

4. German tactical bombers should start out with 6 ground attack and 1 movement rate (Stuka's were single engined, and i believe that their heavy bombers are modelling their double engine bombers)

5. Scotland should be rough terrain.

The net result would be a tougher preassure on england in 1940, and a lot easier time for scotland in 1941-42.

[Basilhare]

[[/quote]
Maybe he plays other Matrix games and posts on those forums, I think they're all connected.

As for pulling off Sealion, yes you can do it, but only if 1) Your opponent is not thinking about it and leaves the sea lane open, and 2) Only vs. Scotland. The biggest problem is not the air power, it's the UK's sea power. You need to up your aircraft's torpedo values to neutralize the RN (or at least reduce it) and use your subs to disconnect the UK from the US. But as far as I can see, it's really difficult unless your opponent makes a mistake. And then, once you've got Scotland, be sure to move plenty of supplies in with your troops, because you will probably get cut off.

[/quote]


Not true...Axis subs with tech 3 or 4 torps and tech 3 defence can put the British fleet on the bottom in about 10 seconds....have had this happen in two games now.....Spring 1941...have poured all available tech into Allied ASW....Germans wear down the British fleet during 1940 turns w/ constant naval/air combat....germans building up sub tech and a stack of 6 subs all the while...UK builds only fighters, inf and art....axis subs move in and kill 2 UK BB's and 2 Light fleets (all that remains of the UK navy) w/ no losses....bingo...Scotland invasion is on....moves 2 paratroopers, 4 art and 4 inf into Scotalnd...Game over for the UK......basilhare

[hakon]

Taking out the british fleet with germany requires britain to spread that fleet out too thinly. (In particular, england should mass their light fleets in one area, which will limit the submarines significantly - this includes bringing the light fleets from egypt to the atlantic.) The cost for england of concentrating, is that the german subs will be able kill some transports every turn, but england can live with that during the first turns. English heavy fleets should either be kept in port, or in an area made safe by light fleets and/or air.

Untill Germany takes Spain, italian subs should be forced to remain in the med by aircraft on gibraltar.

Britain can spend about 15 points on research every turn in the first couple of years. (I usually put all english and american heavy fleets and CV's on hold, or even cancel their production from the start of the game.)

Items that needs research if germany goes for sealion, are:
Fighter range, air attack, evasion and ASW.
Light fleet ASW (evasion of possible).
CV plane ASW
Invantry evasion (attack if possible)
Artillery attack
Heavy fleet air attack and evasion
Maybe flak air attack

The balancing of these depends on the german build

If carefull, england is safe untill Sp41, because of the limited range of german fighters untill then, and because 2-2 german subs are very fragile. To be able to invade, germany depends on air supremacy over scotland, so scotland should have at least 2 flak, as many fighters as possible, 1 art and all available militia.

England should have all available infantry, as these can survive air attacks better (evasion should be 6 by now, making even 6 land attack bombers have problems hitting them. Once evasion goes to 7, they are more or less immune to bombers. (Always stacking milita with artillery is a good general principle, as it will make the militia immune to air attacks.)

In the first turn, most british manpower should go into fighter production. Dont forget to produce in india, australia and canada. inf + ftr in india, trs in australia and ftr in canada is a good defensive build.

Whenever possible, england should exchange fighters with germany by attacking them. (possible means they have equal numbers). English fighters will be rebuilt at once, while german fighters will start 1 area away.

If germany takes both gibraltar and beats you in the fighter race, england needs to start mass-production infantry. (You will know in the summer of 40 how many fighters germany is building.) If germany is really dedicated about fighter production, they will not produce that many bombers and tanks. In that case, you may want to switch to inf + anti-air already in the summer, putting the ftr units on hold for a while. If you can achieve parity in number of fighters with germany, you should probably go for it though. Also make sure to have russia go heavy on ground tech if Germany is obviously attempting a sea lion, as that tech will make a 42 barbarossa very tough for Germany.

As soon as Gibraltar falls, make sure to keep your supply lines as short as possible, limiting the loss of transports. Note that many transports are needed to pull enough resources home. Having a connection to the US is probably enough, and indian and african resources can be transported on eastwards untill suez falls. Keeping a big fleet (all your CV, BB and CL) north of scotland will probably keep it alive, and just 1 area away from the western north sea (limiting supply costs if you have to cut germany off in scotland. Make sure to kill any enemy ships that end their turn in the atlantic. (Surface fleets are killed by a combination of CV planes and Heavy fleets, while subs are killed by planes and light fleets. Vs surface fleets, bring all available air and 2-3 heavy fleets (which you must make sure to pull to safety afterwards), vs subs, bring _all_ your air and light fleets, and dont even try if they have as many subs at you have light fleets.

The three tough turns will be Sp 41 to Au 41. By having either a lot of figters (if germany goes for a balanced build), or inf + flak, german attacks on scotland will be costly, even if they are able to take out your artillery. If they did a balanced build, they can still (and probably should) turn towards russia and/or the middle east, in which case your fighters can be very handy. If they have very heavy air cover, your job is to survive through 41, and as long as possible in 42. If you are able to get your infantry evasion up to 7 before scotland falls, you should have a good chance of surviving (germany produced a lot of fighters during the first 2 turns, so you will have an advantage in inf + flak during the first couple of turns after that). If it looks like you are being invaded soon, try to have at least 1 artillery and 2-4 flak in each of england and scotland at the end of your turn (more than one artillery is waste of manpower, though), as the artillery will force germany to airstrike you, and will absorbe the first 2 hits (keeping your militia and infantry safe) and the flak will make sure he takes casualties doing so. The rest of your forces should be infantry (with as high evasion as possible) combined with whatever militia you were able to pull in from the colonies. When it is obvious that england is going to fall, use a mass transport effort to evacuate your remaing forces. (Ireland could be a good spot)

If england is able to survive untill late 42, there will not be an efficient barbarossa. Combined with a russia that has invested heavily in tech, and that has had x3 production since Wi42, Germany should never be able to be a big threat there. Also, after Wi43, the USA enters, with an x4 production multiple, meaning that english factories are not that important any more. Also, taking germany does not boost german production that much. Finally, taking england back is pretty easy for the US once their production kicks off.

Even falling in the summer of 42 can make for a rough east front for germany.