A New USMC OOB

[Goblin]

The weapon in the first slot is checked against each man for hits. That means that a 4 man recon unit with:

Thompson
BAR
Garand
RGL

Is multiplying the hit chance/results by 4 for the Thompson, then allowing the BAR, Garand, and RGL to fire also. Awful lot of firepower for 4 men. I can see a loadout like this:

Thompson
Garand
Grenade or,

Thompson
BAR
Grenade

I've always had a problem with over-armed, and under-armed recon units. Your suggestion seems over-armed, whereas the current ones seem under-armed.




Goblin

[Riun T]

Hey Gunny, it sounds to me like u've been playing MOH pacific assault, because most of the changes for the four man squad really resembles the gameplay. and I got some battlefootage DVD's for my birthday and they show a jeep with trailer trying to race to cover in the middle of a barrage on one of the sniglets of islandhopping so u could at least make them 6's RT

[KG Erwin]

Goblin, you misunderstood me. My suggestion for a 1941-42 USMC 4-man Recon Ptrol is this:

1. M1903 Rifle 40
2. Reising M50/55 30
3. Hand Grenade 4

For 1943-1949, the M1 Garand replaces the M1903, and the Thompson replaces the Reising.

The OTHER unit I was referring to is the fire-team as part of the Rifle Squad. This was adopted in 1944, and still holds true today. See, confusion sets in, so I think I should leave the fire-teams out.

[KG Erwin]

Riun, I don't play those first-person shooter games. I get my info from research into the official records and other sources.

I could go on and on about matching the Marines real-life TOEs to SPWaW, but the truth is, the Marines were VERY flexible in their task force organizations, and my revisions post-8.3 try to take this into account.

What complicates matters is that the Marine Corps adopted division-wide reorgnizations in every year from 1942 to 1945.

The biggest difference, though, is NOT in the reorganizations. The biggest diffrence was in the quality of the weapons the Marines received. The story is exceedingly complicated, and I've stated that a book needs to be written about the Marines' weapons procurement in WWII.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

The weapon carried by a squad, patrol or fire team leader should never be included in any unit, as he is not firing. He is directing fire and giving orders (which is why he gets to modify spotting and 'to hit' die rolls). If the unit is about to be over run or is very close, then and then only will he fire a weapon and that extra firepower is assumed in the point blank range modifier.

A two or four man recon patrol (they are not supposed to engage enemy) should include:

Sub-machine pistol
Hand Grenade x2 per man

or

Rifle
Hand Grenade x2 per man

A Marine Corps fire team or four man combat patrol (they are supposed to engage enemy) should include:

Rifle
LMG
Hand Grenade x2 per man

or (combat patrol only)

Sub-machine pistol
LMG
Hand Grenade x2 per man

If LMG is carried, you should probably reduce speed.

Do not include rifle grenades in two to four man patrols, only in full, front line squads.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: Goblin

The weapon in the first slot is checked against each man for hits. That means that a 4 man recon unit with:

Thompson
BAR
Garand
RGL

Is multiplying the hit chance/results by 4 for the Thompson, then allowing the BAR, Garand, and RGL to fire also. Awful lot of firepower for 4 men. I can see a loadout like this:

Thompson
Garand
Grenade or,

Thompson
BAR
Grenade

I've always had a problem with over-armed, and under-armed recon units. Your suggestion seems over-armed, whereas the current ones seem under-armed.


Goblin

[KG Erwin]

Ok, Mike, you are saying that all of the units' platoon leaders weapons should be disregarded. Given this, then my earlier argument against having machine-gun platoons having platoon HQ units is valid. The misc small arms (pistols, carbines and an occasional SMG) would be OK when assigned to MG units as secondary arms?

If you remove the platoon/company leaders' SMGs, then what use are they being in the database at all? You propose putting them in only as dedicated squad weapons?

In this case, the average 1942 USMC D-series squad (minus the Reising for the squad leader), would put the M1903 Rifle in slot one, the BAR in slot 2, the rifle-grenadier in slot 3, and hand grenades in slot 4. This DOES match the actual TOE for 1942.

What you are saying requires a reworking across the board. It disappoints me, as the Marine guys loved their Thompsons.

However, we cannot escape the facts of the game code, so it's back to the editor. [:(]

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Closer. Although the rifle grenade was meant to augment the hand grenade, in game terms, only one should be issued. Not both.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ok, Mike, you are saying that all of the units' platoon leaders weapons should be disregarded. Given this, then my earlier argument against having machine-gun platoons having platoon HQ units is valid. The misc small arms (pistols, carbines and an occasional SMG) would be OK when assigned to MG units as secondary arms?

If you remove the platoon/company leaders' SMGs, then what use are they being in the database at all? You propose putting them in only as dedicated squad weapons?

In this case, the average 1942 USMC D-series squad (minus the Reising for the squad leader), would put the M1903 Rifle in slot one, the BAR in slot 2, the rifle-grenadier in slot 3, and hand grenades in slot 4. This DOES match the actual TOE for 1942.

What you are saying requires a reworking across the board. It disappoints me, as the Marine guys loved their Thompsons.

However, we cannot escape the facts of the game code, so it's back to the editor. [:(]

[m10bob]

The designer of the game (and Glenn) do a great job,but in combat,TO&E pretty much goes out the window especially with "recon" units..
My dad carried a Thompson (WW2,Army,often led the I&R uit for HHC,116th RCT..
In Korea,he carried a Browning HP(which he favoured over the .45)..There,he was regimental S2 and only went out with 1 man.
In Nam, I carried an M16,a .45,and an M 79 "thump gun"..The last was not TO&E..(Nobody in my unit carried AK's,at night it would be suicide to carry an enemy weapon,you'd be fired on by your own people..) I've heard some leg units carried them,we suffered few friendly fire accidents..We also had access to BAR's,M1's,and I know of a signal corps lineman who carried a Thompson,(in the 1st I.D.)
Certainly none of that WW2 stuff was TO&E..
Glenn,I sent you some info a year ago backing the claim that by Okinawa,some entire Gyrene squads carried nothing but BAR's..They used what they felt they needed.
Oh well,back to the GAME..[;)]

[Alby]

Geez, ...how did the german 4 man recon patrol ever end up with rifles, SMGs, AT mines and hand grenades.[X(]
this cannot be how they were meant to be modellled.

[KG Erwin]

Yeah, it was the German Recon Patrols that really got me thinking about other changes. The Germans are more like long-range assault units (Stosstruppen), which is maybe what they should be called.

If nothing else, they should have the AT-mines removed.

[Alby]

any word on the the mech.exe patch??

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

any word on the the mech.exe patch??

Haven't heard anything official, Alby. The "inside" sources aren't revealing anything, either.

My best guess is this (resorting to "Casey Stengelese"): "It might be ready before we know it, but any time after that is open to speculation". [:D]