attempt to create balanced scenario'41

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 4:37 pm

Hi all!

I am experimenting with scenario'41 and try to balance it. As a result of my efforts, I have scenario'41 with balanced begining where Western front is crushed on first week, Northwest Front retreats and Southern front strikes back. Number of Luftwaffe planes is reduced to historical number ~1900(ready) while number of Soviet planes(~9000) remained unchanged because though there was ~16000 planes, it is unknown how many were operative and could actualy fly. About other changes read in readme.txt. Archive can be dowloaded from http://grognard.chat.ru/camp41.zip
If you can't reach this site, I will try to find place somewhere else: Yahoo and such.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 5:55 pm

Hm interesting, one gigantic task would be to get the right location of soviet forces.

About this thing with russian replacements. To replace the lack of divisions beeing formed is it possible to increase the number of squads in current divisions?

I agree that russian readiness and experience should be higher. But at the same time should the germans be possible to advance more quickly.

A question though about russian forces. What if the red army withdraws like in version 3.101, will not the game become totally unbalanced?

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 6:30 pm

Keep soviet experience the same- if soviet experience begins too high then by the blizzard turn of 41-42 it will be so high it will crush all resistance- or it will finnish extremely high.

I believe if you lower German supply the game will be balanced- keep their supplies tight and the game will be balanced.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 12:10 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Hm interesting, one gigantic task would be to get the right location of soviet forces.

About this thing with russian replacements. To replace the lack of divisions beeing formed is it possible to increase the number of squads in current divisions?

number of divisions is limited. As well as number of squads in division . There can not be more than 256 squads. It is a reason for replacement overflow bug to take place.

I agree that russian readiness and experience should be higher. But at the same time should the germans be possible to advance more quickly.

It will be a problem I think, but I did not test it until the end. I believe that historicaly Soviet forces could be withdrawm quick, but then Germans would simply marche after them and did not let them to organize realy strong defence in the rear. About speed of possible German advance: rail conversion was problem only partialy. Germans were supplied mostly by trucks during first three months of war. That's why I ask a questionabout higher rail conversion rate for Germans in June-September'41 time period.

A question though about russian forces. What if the red army withdraws like in version 3.101, will not the game become totally unbalanced?

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 5:38 am

Tried it out and I think the russians are almost too strong.

However I like your re-deployment. Something maybe for the next update?

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 7:29 am

Originally posted by Mist:
Hi all!

I am experimenting with scenario'41 and try to balance it. As a result of my efforts, I have scenario'41 with balanced begining where Western front is crushed on first week, Northwest Front retreats and Southern front strikes back. Number of Luftwaffe planes is reduced to historical number ~1900(ready) while number of Soviet planes(~9000) remained unchanged because though there was ~16000 planes, it is unknown how many were operative and could actualy fly. About other changes read in readme.txt. Archive can be dowloaded from http://grognard.chat.ru/camp41.zip
If you can't reach this site, I will try to find place somewhere else: Yahoo and such.

Mist

Have put it on the Yahoo site as you requested.

Nick

Hetz(er) · Post by **Hetz(er)** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 6:48 am

I'm trying it out now. It's really evil <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . You are a bad, bad person costing me sleep like this <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It seems doable but i haven't gotten to winter yet. Will let you know if i survive.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:19 am

I've just uploaded next version of my experimental Barbarossa scenario. I expect it to be closer to balance. Changes include updated Luftwaffe OOB to exact one(thanx to Rick Bancroft) including number of operative and damaged planes in each group, exact Soviet and Axis frontline OOB, unit locations according to a map of 22nd June'41. Soviet experience and readiness is adjusted one more time (thanx Josan). Complete descrption of changes is writen to readme.txt which is included in archive.
Archive can be downloaded from http://grognard.chat.ru/camp41v11.zip
now. If you can't reach this siteby some reason, ask me to send it to you by email. I hope that Loki will place it on his Yahoo briefcase(central download site <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ).

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]
Have just created yahoo briefcase. Scenarios '41 and 44 can be downloaded from there now too.

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]</p>

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Fri Dec 28, 2001 2:41 am

Originally posted by Mist:
I've just uploaded next version of my experimental Barbarossa scenario. I expect it to be closer to balance. Changes include updated Luftwaffe OOB to exact one(thanx to Rick Bancroft) including number of operative and damaged planes in each group, exact Soviet and Axis frontline OOB, unit locations according to a map of 22nd June'41. Soviet experience and readiness is adjusted one more time (thanx Josan). Complete descrption of changes is writen to readme.txt which is included in archive.
Archive can be downloaded from http://grognard.chat.ru/camp41v11.zip
now. If you can't reach this siteby some reason, ask me to send it to you by email. I hope that Loki will place it on his Yahoo briefcase(central download site <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ).

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]
Have just created yahoo briefcase. Scenarios '41 and 44 can be downloaded from there now too.

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Mist

Varjager and i have just started a game with your new 41v1 campaign and i'm german.
I like that setup north of Lvov, axis must decide whether to send out 3 weak PzKps or wait a turn and flesh out 2 of them. I waited, so soviets were not hurt much on first turn. (near Lvov)
I'm doing turn 2 now

A short prayer.

'Though i walk through the valley of the shadow
of death, i shall fear no evil...

Nick

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Dec 28, 2001 3:30 am

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

Mist

Varjager and i have just started a game with your new 41v1 campaign and i'm german.
I like that setup north of Lvov, axis must decide whether to send out 3 weak PzKps or wait a turn and flesh out 2 of them. I waited, so soviets were not hurt much on first turn. (near Lvov)
I'm doing turn 2 now

A short prayer.

'Though i walk through the valley of the shadow
of death, i shall fear no evil...

Nick

Hehe... Axis job must be very hard there. We are starting it with Josan too. He plays for Axis side(and does it best).

varjager · Post by **varjager** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 5:22 pm

Nick,just a word of warning!!!

'Though i walk through the valley of the shadow
of death, i shall fear no evil...Cause Varjager is the most evil man in the valley'.

I think that when winter starts we will see how well balanced the scenario is.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Mon Dec 31, 2001 12:05 pm

Originally posted by varjager:
Nick,just a word of warning!!!

'Though i walk through the valley of the shadow
of death, i shall fear no evil...Cause Varjager is the most evil man in the valley'.

I think that when winter starts we will see how well balanced the scenario is.

Varjager

So far i'm about a turn behind average advance.
German July20 turn sees the fall of Mogilev and area plus axis moves next to Pskov and Kiev.

As to blizzard i'll do the same as i did in the other games. Panzers plus all Bn's to the rear,
Infantry and Luftwaffe defend.

Nick

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:52 pm

Mist

A quick report on your '41v1 game i'm playing pbem.

10aug41

German Pz units have reached the gates of Vyasma.

Nick

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Thu Jan 03, 2002 6:57 pm

Very well done Mist! I liked both scenario very well. Your 41 scenario must be closer to historical then the original. The red army was a much stronger foe then in the original 41 scenario I believe.

shane056 · Post by **shane056** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:06 pm

A great job Mist with the revised 1941 scenario... A question if I may, myself and a fellow Australian wish to play this as a full length campaign, but on reading your readme file it states that it has been set for 26 turns, can this be also played as a full length campaign going all the way to 1945 ?? ie.. is all I need to do, is to use the editor and alter the game length and victory objectives ?? Plus are all the axis and soviets units fully included and properly timed ?? ...Many Thanks ..Shane

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:23 pm

DOH!!!

Dammit i did'nt look at the victory page. I thought this was a full campaign. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

I've been playing the scenerio with varjager as if its a full campaign (just did aug31 turn). So my whole strategy was aimed at a '42 win.

Oh dear, lets see if i can retrieve the situation in the last months left.

Nick

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Mon Jan 07, 2002 10:05 am

Mist

Could i make a suggestion?

In your '41v1 scenerio the axis could take the line Gulf of finland(leningrad stays soviet), demyansk/Kalinin/Moscow/Voronezh/Rostov for a total of 4 VP's ( 3 for Moscow and 1 for Dnepropetrovsk)

This is a draw no? (5 vp's needed for a win)
I think that would be an Axis victory.

Nick

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 10:49 pm

Hiya guys! We've just finished celebrating orthodoxal Christmass. I am back alive and healthy! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Loki, I am sorry about your confusion. Din't I write about scenario length in the read me? Yes, it is 26 turns long. I plan to make it full campaign, but it is not complete yet.
I can explain why did I do it short game. If Soviet player evacuates all remaining troops from boarder to deep regions to regroup and wait untill blitzkrieg supply ends, then he will be too strong mainly because of large amount of tanks. Thogh these tanks were obsolete and had limited resource, they can be used at full in WiR. I don't think it would be right. Very many Soviet tanks were abandoned because of engine breaks and other mechanical faults in boarder regions. So, I added some objectives for Axis and for Soviet side to force Soviet player to fight according to his historical possibilities. Old tanks could stand and fight but they could not serve long enough. That's my point. I don't like the idea to force players to repeat historical course of war, but I have no idea yet how to implement real potential of obsolete tanks which had not many spare parts and had weared engines.
Another reason for temporaly making this scenario limited length is new divisions which were formed and arived from Far East and Siberia. One can notice that no new Soviet divisions arrive in this scenario. So, it is incomplete and can not be played as full campaign. After all, it is experimental and has one purpose: help Rick to create balanced campaign'41. That's why I've used his latest modified obwir as a primary base for this scenario. I hope that results of game-tests will show what changes to do and WiR will have balanced standard campaign'41.

BrickReid · Post by **BrickReid** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 3:35 am

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

Mist

Varjager and i have just started a game with your new 41v1 campaign and i'm german.
I like that setup north of Lvov, axis must decide whether to send out 3 weak PzKps or wait a turn and flesh out 2 of them. I waited, so soviets were not hurt much on first turn. (near Lvov)
I'm doing turn 2 now

A short prayer.

'Though i walk through the valley of the shadow
of death, i shall fear no evil...

Nick

Just a little tinsy weensie piece of advice. DON'T GIVE UP YOUR FIRST TURN FOR REARRANGING YOUR ARMY! Ok, whew. Wait until you have to stop the first time and wait for your supplies to catch up. If you miss those initial cutoffs you will have to face all those guys + all their buddies that you have to face later anyway. You MUST kill the tanks, arty, and AT. The infantry is not so important because the Soviets never run out of them anyway, but the hardware shortage you can impose is critical to denying the enemy the ability of effective combined arms operations. Just my opinion. Good luck. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 1:04 pm

Originally posted by BrickReid:

The infantry is not so important because the Soviets never run out of them anyway

Not true in WiR. The infantry is another thing that must be saved from the german blitzkrieg.