Another "Why the Japaneese tend to kick butt thread"

[wernerpruckner]

>What am I the only Japanese player who moves combat formations to Northen Japan early in war? Is it just me that deploys air assets to Central Pacific and keeps ships ready against Allied adventures?<

I think too many Allied players suffer from the "KB-is-almighty-in- the-first-two-years"-syndrom

I tend to be a bit too aggressive as long as I have enough forces

[moses]

Again the ability to get land based air up in running in Japan within a few days or even weeks is fantasy.

We are talking about an allied force which sneaks in and can spend only a few days dumping whatever troops and supplies it can over the beach before it has to leave. It has to leave quickly not only because the Japanese carriers are soon to arrive. It has to because it will not be able to sustain a long-term defence against the land based air that it will face and the fleet is not logistically supportable off the coast of Japan in 42.

You don't need much to slow 3 divisions dumped up on the beach in this manner. With no air support. little transport , and no intell, a few low quality battalions will slow allied movement to a crawl.

Come on be serious. Dropping three divisions in Japan like this IRL would be a crime. They would all be in captivity within three weeks.

[wernerpruckner]

If in a PBEM the Japanese player is stupid enough to leave Japan defenceless then he deserves it !!!! just a little thinking outside the box !!

[mogami]

Hi, I don't think you understand me. If the Japanese have 200k troops heading for India and KB is there in support then Japan is wide open.
Nates and Sonia's against P-40 and B-25. The ALlies can send as many aircraft as most Japanese will have in Home Islands. There is no doubt Japan will begin recalling groups but that will be after the landings. The Allies will need to build the airfields but they can have 50 fighters up the turn after they take the airfield. A very mild Allied approach would be to conduct landings at Toyohara and Wakkani. Toyohara can't be reached with out embarking on transports and Wakkani can provide base for march on Sapporo. If Sapporo is captured it's turn out the lights for Japan. They will never retake it. They would have to be able to disengage 6 divisions, transport all the way back to Japan and then march to battle. Sapporo can build to a size 9 airfield (with a size 7 next hex) Wakkani 9 and Toyohara 7 (thats 1600 aircraft without overloading)
The only thing that prevents this in normal games is the fear of KB and Japanese who provide for defesne from turn 1. Japan can't crap a defense overnight to make up for it if they have not provided it from turn 1.

[moses]

I understand your point that the defence to an invasion of India is to attack elsewhere.

I also agree with you (I think?) that an invasion of India or China is not a sure thing. It is possible to mount a successful defence I believe.

But the problem in these theaters( and now with an invasion of Japan as in your example) is the speed with which decisive results can be achieved and the ease with which they can be supplied.

This allows decisive results to occur with greater frequency then you would expect.

Chance of a successful US invasion of Japan in 42. Absolutly zero.
Chance of complete destruction of Chinese Army by early 43. Zero.
Chance of conquering all of India in 42. Again zero unless the Indian population revolts and supports your invasion. (pretty unlikely).

In the game these are all achievable goals. Not that they are guaranted to work but they can be achieved a fair percentage of the time and do not even require the hurculian efforts that you might expect would be needed to execute such operations.

[mogami]

Hi, Disgruntled Japanese civilians are no threat to US invasion in WITP and they were not in WWII. If Japan does not move combat formations north then the area remains exposed. If Japan upgrades all the Claudes in Home Islands and sends them to China or Burma or Rabaul then there are no escorts for the bombers that also are not there.
In actual war Japan had a defense in Home Islands and after Doolittle they increased several fold. If the Japanese player does not take these precautions then his only defense is the meekness of Allied players.
The ALlies do not have to take the hard road from Solomons up to Saipan unless the Japanese make all other options impossible or more costly. They are not inhertly more costly or less feasable at start. Japan has no defense in Central or South Pacific or at Home. It is only in this context that the PH strike can be fully understood. If Japan makes the Allies think a invasion is heading for PH then Home Islands are safe. If Japan broadcasts to entire world that all their combat formations are busy and KB is away and no airgroups worth doodley are in Japan why would USA bother with anything other then getting war over with. I said northern Japan but the landings could just as well take place directly on Tokyo. (would cost more)
The same fear that makes Allied players send divisions to Pearl and airgroups to San Fransisco apply to Japan. What they don't protect remains exposed. In all these "Japan runs rampant" threads the common theme is "Japan does this and Japan does that" with their entire military force. What I want to know is what stops the Allies from just going and getting war finished by taking Home Islands Those islands in Central pacific are supposed to have garrisons and airgroups to prevent this. Japan does not have enough troops to defend Central Pacific and send 200k to India.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't think you understand me. If the Japanese have 200k troops heading for India and KB is there in support then Japan is wide open.
Nates and Sonia's against P-40 and B-25. The ALlies can send as many aircraft as most Japanese will have in Home Islands. There is no doubt Japan will begin recalling groups but that will be after the landings. The Allies will need to build the airfields but they can have 50 fighters up the turn after they take the airfield. A very mild Allied approach would be to conduct landings at Toyohara and Wakkani. Toyohara can't be reached with out embarking on transports and Wakkani can provide base for march on Sapporo. If Sapporo is captured it's turn out the lights for Japan. They will never retake it. They would have to be able to disengage 6 divisions, transport all the way back to Japan and then march to battle. Sapporo can build to a size 9 airfield (with a size 7 next hex) Wakkani 9 and Toyohara 7 (thats 1600 aircraft without overloading)
The only thing that prevents this in normal games is the fear of KB and Japanese who provide for defesne from turn 1. Japan can't crap a defense overnight to make up for it if they have not provided it from turn 1.

Oh I understand and as far as the game goes I have no doubt that your plan might work.
I'm just saying that IRL it would be a joke.

It will take days just to offload the troops and a few supplies much less all the reqiurments to run airbases. Its just not as easy to conquer 3000 square miles of territory as the game makes it seem.

So you drive inland and maybe you get lucky and capture an airbase with a nice load of fuel. You send some p-40's in (they fly in from where?) and maybe they fly a day or two until they run out of ammo and spare parts. So what.

Eventually you're carriers have to leave station and KB will arrive. What you now have are 60,000 american troops awaiting surrender. Oh they may fight there way into a city and damage a few factories but even that is not so easy. (Look how long we fought in Faluja against what would charitably be called militia) You don't even need a full Japanese division. You just bottle them up and wait for them to fall apart under the weight of air and naval bombardment and lack of supply

[moses]

Now if Japan is really stripping all his air assets from the home island then sending your carriers to Japan and bombing the snot out of his factories is a fair option and histoically just punishment. Shore bombardment of his cities is also a good idea and again historically justified punishment for Japan's stupidity.


Landing a bunch of troops and conquering large tracts of Japan is only possible because of a game system that allows you to do these things far too rapidly. Its completely fair because Japan is taking advantage of the same things in India. But it would just be nice if things were slowed down in all land theaters so that operations proceded within plausable bounds.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: moses

Again the ability to get land based air up in running in Japan within a few days or even weeks is fantasy.

I agree, any air unit that rebases in this game should have all its aircraft set to damaged. If you've established a good airbase with lots of air support on hand, the unit will be up and running in days. If not then it'll take weeks. This would be much more realistic then what we have now where units fly non-stop at a just captured airfield with minimal support.

Jim

[Grotius]

Mogami - So what forces do you use to protect the north? Do you just relocate some of the Home Defense Forces, or do you assign infantry from some other HQ?

[freeboy]

the biggest threat I face as a Allied commander is the long rang Betties in the early game.. AND the Japs have many small battalins assigned to the south area? whatever those goes are called goingto the solomons. I need to play a game as Japs soon[:D]
You can hold Iwo and thes other Islands with a smal KB, and surfase force and force any attack to be mounted at a disadvantage, but beware, if you do not completely destroy India and take KArachi, this forward attack is a bommorange ! I favor the ho rule forcing Japs to wait to attack Russia to 43,, and pay points to move units out of Manchuria via land paths..

[bradfordkay]

Zeta said: " But when I ever say some thing about allies late in the war I here silence. Why I have no clue? "

I think that it is because many of us have not experienced anything later in the war and therefore do not feel that we can intelligently discuss how the game handles things there. I am reading your reports, but I have had nothing to add to those comments. When I get that far in the game, the situation might change (of course, the forum might be long dead by then!).

[kfmiller41]

Great thread. I have played both sides in several games, of course having to restart beofre 1943 but have noticed several things that people here have brought up. First as Japan every allied player who I have played against has either threatened Japan by bombing her (worst raid hit Tokyo and sank about 10 transports) or capturing Wake. After the first time that happened I learned that Japan HAS to defend the homeland or any allied player worth his salt will make me pay. One thing as Japan that can freeze up an allied player is if you can make KB disappear from sight. I docked them in Truk for a week and the allied player was very timid after that with his carrier assets. That allowed me to capture the SRA much easier.

As the allies I have taked Wake from an opponent who sent KB into the indian ocean and also threatened Japan. Have never considered trying to go after India as Japan myself, just dont think its doable.

I do think the game does allow for a good historically based game, lets face it, Japan really has no realistic chance to win a long war with the US and the game reflects this well. What they can do is do better than they really did and thats the challenge, at least it is for me knowing that in 43-45 Japan is gonna reap what the sowed!![:-]

[Runsilentrundeep]

I should state that the one day turns are focused more on the side with initiative and not necesarily just the Japanese player. The reason I think this gives them an advantage is that it really is a psychological battle for the Allied player in the (realtime) months of buttkicking. We all sign up thiking "just wait until the Essex class shows up and your toast" but after a while your 23rd completly uneven naval clash may not make the game as fun as December 8th. You have to have some serious patience reserves after a while.